Australian Satanism - Australia’s Global Satanic Legacy And Future (Part 1 to 3) By Frater 616 - Alpha Lodges Do Exist

Australian Satanism
Australia’s Global Satanic Legacy And Future
Part 1 to Part 3
By Frater 616
Alpha Lodges Do Exist

2nd January 2010 12:16 PM

Aloysius Fozdyke sent a message using the contact form at http://loveforlife.com.au/contact -

Petor Narsagonan – Frater 616 – died on Tuesday the 25th of March 2004. Prior to His death I received sole custody of His literary estate and under the terms of His Trust Deed, full control subsequent to His demise. Among the material was this disjointed essay concerning the Alpha Lodges. I have felt it necessary to edit very little of this work, although legal considerations have ensured that some names and details were excised. It was His intention to have this published in the popular media.

The Alpha Lodges do exist. Evidence leaves no doubt.

Frater 616 died as he lived – an enigma!

His Intelligence connexions and influential friends miss him.

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Arthur & Fiona Cristian replied to Aloysius Fozdyke

Hello Aloysius
We will post this document as is in the Love For Life website here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7103 (under section: Freemasonry - Secret Societies - Masonic Lodges - Fraternities http://loveforlife.com.au/content/09/05/08/freemasonry-secret-societies-...) with a reference back to you as the source/supplier of this information written by Petor Narsagonan.

You are most welcome to create a blog in the love for life website where you can post such articles/information down-the-line as you feel inspired to do so. Please go here to begin the steps of creating your blog: http://loveforlife.com.au/forum

All the best
Arthur Cristian
Love For Life

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2nd January 2009 - 7.46pm

The email Arthur & Fiona sent bounced so it is possible this document is either a prank or is genuine but the sender is protecting himself/herself.

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at relay02.pair.com. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. afozdyke @ yahoo.co.uk

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4th January 2010 - 10:15 PM

A.J. Fozdyke sent a message using the contact form at http://loveforlife.com.au/contact.

Dear Sir,
I forwarded the material to you and thank you for publishing same.

Unfortunately a number of websites have reproduced it. This was never my intention. I have removed some details; for example, the fact that J.W.H.
is a High Grade Magician, that J.W.B. was a puppet being manipulated by the Alpha Lodge and that T.B. is an advanced initiate within the O.N.A. A
number of paragraphs were re-arranged in order to achieve greater narrative flow, for in some circumstances I was working from notes.

The Dr. Ward referred to was Dr. Stephen Ward (about whom the entire truth will never be told).

The British pound will plummet, allowing the U.K. Government to more easily adopt the Euro. The American Empire is about to implode. Diseases created in the U.S.S.R. are about to be ‘inadvertently’ unleashed upon the world. The timetable has its own momentum – because no one cares to stop it!

Petor Narsagonan was known by a number of names, at least one of which would be known by many South Africans. He published under a number of non-de plumes. I have no idea of all that he did and I do not wish to know. He is dead. He was found dead by a regular visitor to one of his homes (in Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia). His demise had been expected and yet I have heard rumours of peculiar events preceding it. His body was cremated (as is the tradition) in a ceremony that saw the Council of Seven convene in Melbourne; Victoria, Australia on 30th April, 2004.

I do not believe that he had children (or at least, surviving children).

The terms of his testamentary disposition (probate was not requires) left his assets, including portfolios, to the Grand Council of The Alpha Lodge.

Because I do not wish to be contacted I have not proffered any of my details. I ask that you accept that I have my reasons for so doing.

I have filled in some of the gaps with the assistance of Fraters S.A. and K9.

Thank you.

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5th January 2009 9:09 PM

Aloysius Fozdyke sent a message using the contact form at http://loveforlife.com.au/contact.

Final Email

For we are part of His Kingdom; For Aeons and Aeons.

Whether the herd doubt the material I have forwarded is not of any interest to me. I was instructed to follow the wishes of the late Petor Narsagonan and have done so, at some personal risk to myself. There is enough (albeit dated) material for individuals to judge its veracity. Being familiar with the work I know that there are names and information that could be researched. I also know that these will not be. Perhaps Petor was applying the oldest trick in the book: if you want to hide something, make it public.

As for me, I am advancing in years and must perform some ordeals whilst I am still able. This is my last direct communication. In the coming months
an economic depression will quickly manifest that will make the Great Depression look like a picnic. The sheeple do not care that we have orchestrated it and have been since the Mount Washington Hotel meeting of July, sixty-six years ago. No one showed any concern then, so when their wives and daughters prostitute themselves to put food on the table and the desperate sell their children, they still won't complain! Paper money is cheap to print but must be paid with interest and we and our associates want more real assets - including the assets of our doubters.

In a scientific world devoid of divinity the fear of the diabolical still thrives. There is something within the minds of men and women that knows
– the atavistic comprehension that although buried beneath centuries of science and schooling still whispers, 'Something wicked this way comes.'

Our ancient path is the path to power unimaginable, to a Darkness and Evil that rides through the Black Magician like thunder, to the inexorable
eclipse of the conscience that betrays. It is the gate into the unspeakable, where the mighty rise as Gods and Goddesses and the meek shrivel into ashes. Darkness must be known and experienced as a real and tangible force, as substantial as the wind that stirs into a tornado, never seen but undeniable all the same.

And shortly you shall all know it.

A.J. Fozdyke

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Australia’s Global Satanic Legacy And Future (Pt. 1)

By Frater 616

I will go down to The Altars in Hell
To Satan
The Giver of Life
O! Prince of Darkness
Hear Me!

Our Father which wert in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name
In heaven as it is on Earth.
Give us this day our Ecstasy
And deliver us to evil
As well as temptation
For we are your Kingdom
For Aeons and Aeons.

Satanism flourishes beneath the scintillating midnight-blue wet streets and bedevilling phosphorescent lights of Australia’s glittering capital cities. Its practitioners are from all walks of life. Although marginal types and those with predisposing personalities have always and will always be important to Satanism and its leaders’ ends, they are merely tools. Their antinomian influence is now so pervasive as not to be readily noticed.

Amongst the highest echelons some are politicians, medical doctors, high ranking police officers, lawyers, advertising gurus, decorated military men, media personalities, fashion models and social workers. Amongst the lowest (usually temporary) ranks are prostitutes, minor drug dealer

Comments

miss the whole document

Hey, I can´t see the full text, it stops after the line `Amongst the highest echelons some are politicians, medical doctors, high ranking police officers, lawyers, advertising gurus, decorated military men, media personalities, fashion models and social workers. Amongst the lowest (usually temporary) ranks are prostitutes, minor drug dealer`

where is the rest of it? part 3 especially..

thanks and blessings

Re: miss the whole document

Not sure why you are having this problem, al ok at this end.
At bottom of each post are the page numbersm try
Page One: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7103
Page Two: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/10/01/02/australian-satanism-australia...
Page Three: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/10/01/02/australian-satanism-australia...

All the best
Arthur & Fiona Cristian
Love For Life

The Satanic Epistles of Aloysius Fozdyke - Part One by Gi Norman

The Satanic Epistles of Aloysius Fozdyke - Part 1
THE USHER OF DESECRATION
Response To Satanist Insider:
A Woman Will Herald The Antichrist
By Gi Norman
Australia
27th July 2011

The Satanic Epistles of Aloysius Fozdyke Part 1 THE USHER OF DESECRATION - Response to Satanist Insider: A ...

Tell me someone herd protocols of the learned elders of zion

Now please tell me someone has herd of the protocols of the learned elders of zion. All this Aloysius Fozdyke person is saying sounds exactly the same as what has been written in the book, and sounds like a tactic they would use. see the truth is there is a group of people who do and have control of many powerful organisations but theyre definitely not satanist. the reason for all this satanic rant and covering the true identity of his people is because they know that satanist threaten all that control they have over everything. I am truly surprised that one of you would go through so much trouble making up this garbage. which only seems to me is that youse are truly fearful of what is to happen. the age of satan is coming and you and your people are definitely going to know about it haha. anyway it is obvious no matter what one says regardles of the information you wont tell the truth because you have got all the other idiots fooled, at least i know that you know that i know what you are really talking about if you know what i mean.

P.S. no one will understand this but Aloysius Fozdyke and I.

Satanists Will Propagate Any Lie That Serves Their Ends.........

Hi Arthur,
Satanism is a very powerful sect around the world, as you would know. It has been around for centuries. I would add a little something to the story on your website, namely ---

Satanists will propagate any lie that serves their ends but they really believe what they believe is the truth. What they believe is that God had two sons, one Christ, the other Satan. Satan rebelled against God, lost and was thrown out of heaven. In the outer nothingness he created the nearest approximation to heaven but because he had set himself opposite to God everything he created was opposite to the goodness of God.

What he created, they believe was the physical universe and being opposite to God they believe that the natural order is that might is right and that a successful use of power is its own validation. To be wrong, they believe only means that you misjudged the situation and used the wrong tactics. They believe that the only way to have an afterlife is to perform some deed that impresses Satan enough to attract his attention, hence some of the horrible crimes committed with complete indifference to the suffering of the victims.

You probably already know about Doug Coe and ‘The Family’ in the USA. Based in Virginia, just outside Washington, they advocate complete, unquestioning obedience to a being they call Jesus, not the Jesus of the New Testament but a being who advocates and rewards a successful acquisition and use of power, regardless of ethics. It has been a brilliant seductive operation, given the historical resonance with the name ‘Jesus’ over the centuries.They have had a direct hand in every misuse of state power by the United States Government for decades.

They have also actively supported TV and Emotional Evangelism which calls for public affirmations of faith despite very specific warnings in the New Testament against such superficial, potentially hypocritical and strategic displays. The accumulation of massive wealth from these activities and repeated incidents of the most depraved acts of homosexuality by Evangelists against young people in their congregations goes against the text and spirit of the New Testament, to say the least.

The way ‘The Family’, together with the Evangelists have used public affirmations of faith, despite New Testament admonitions against this has hijacked the US Republican Party away from its small government, low tax, traditional values, direct relationship with the land and an innate reluctance to support foreign military adventuring and to becoming a vehicle to be used by George W. Bush’s handlers.

Something similar is happening in the Australian Liberal and National Parties.

The Satanists have also done something similar with Islam in turning people into suicide bombers in the name of the Prophet.

In Australia, they have used multi-culturalism, white guilt about supposed race crimes over the centuries, males as oppressors of females, etc to put in place a regime that prevents any emergence of a land inspired local culture and spirituality and reduces everyone to being only a consumer worker or business operator. Certainly not beings with individual cultural or spiritual capacities.

The way the Labor Party, the party of the ‘working people’ was used to introduce multi-culturalism was brilliant. Multi-National Corporations do not want any national cultures around the world that have their own relationship with the land of their country so, in the name of ‘free’ trade and ‘free’ markets they go in support of ‘the free movement of peoples’, which means only from the Third World into Western Countries for the moment so that they can have a group of incompatible ghettos that have their token annual days but in practice a Hollywood inspired California culture is imposed that allows the multi-nationals to place factories in low wage areas to produce low cost ‘California Lifestyle Products’ that can be sold into every country around the world, in time.

This helps the Satanists in reducing everyone down into being economic entities only and in having people congregate in cities where they can be more easily controlled and kept away from any relationship with the land.

D Hall

Reply to D Hall

Hi D Hall,
Correct if wrong but what you are essentially saying is that there is two sides to Christianity?

There are people out there that are really Satanists disguising themselves as Christians and fooling the unwary or those people/ Christians that do not study the Bible? This is what the Apostle Paul said that there were two gospels and two Christs, one is really Jesus and the other is the Antichrist, who counterfeits Jesus and deceives the world through sorcery.

Through personal application and study of the Bible and prophecy one becomes aware that God has many "sons and daughters", sons by creation were the angels and Adam the first man, by adoption were humans, however Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16.

Jesus shared in the creation of all things with the Father, see Proverbs 8. Satan or Lucifer was a created being or angel and was created by the Father and Son by the power of their spirit, the Holy Spirit. The angels are all known as sons of God, see Job. Lucifer was a covering cherub, or the 2nd closest to the throne of the Ancient of Days, namely Yahweh or Jehovah as God the Father is also known.

Jesus Christ or Michael, the Archangel or (Architect/Creator/Leader of the Angels) was closest to the throne of God and the only being in the universe that was as the presence or authority of the Father. The creation of the earth was between the Father and the Son and the plan of redemption, where Christ was given in man's place as an atonement for sin was really laid out before the creation of the earth was completed. God knew that Satan would try to destroy God's creation and usurp the world from Adam and Eve, (stealing through deception the world and the immortality/face to face relationship with God they had before they sinned) because God lives in yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Hate and jealousy for Jesus Christ had been brewing in the heart of Satan for a long time toward and when the war of heaven took place, Satan and the angels he convinced to rebel (now demons) were cast down to this earth, not some parallel universe, thus Satan is now ruling the earth as far as God permits, full knowing that he has a short time. When Christ died on Calvary the victory was sealed for all humanity, we now have the opportunity to receive eternal life with God and reclaim this earth again as our home in the Edenic condition.

Christ is the only true saviour and mediator between God and man, the only way to the Father through the Son. Satan is everything in opposition to God and as attested by the above article about Satanism regarding the depravity of those individuals who have personally chosen that path that will lead to the second resurrection. God cannot be blamed because he gave very human a conscience and ability to decide between right and wrong within the capacity of their intelligence - Christ is the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world - These Satanist people must become possessed with the demons that they worship and can no longer exercise their thinking powers of what is ethical or unethical.

This is a counterfeit process of the anointing of the Holy Spirit of God that produces goodness and the fruits of the spirit. It makes true the Biblical claim that Satan set himself up in opposition to everything that is God, good just holy and decent and orderly through lawlessness or chaos. Their only hope lies in the Saviour that they reject as did their master, eons ago.

God is not a respecter of persons, high or low rich or poor. All men are created equal. All men may come to Christ to seek pardon for sins and recieve grace.God will not force any person to obey him, it is a hard road to travel and Christ assures of his ever abiding love and presence throughout our lives as our help, comforter and burden bearer, he becomes our father and we his children when the kingdom of God is reborn in us. Israel is a spiritual nation and is made up of all tribes, nations, peoples and languages.

God loves us and will never leave and forsake us. He is the true God, all the rest are Satan counterfeits and the mystery religion, Babylon. All of the above was taken from the Bible, pre King James versions and the EG White series entitled the Conflict of Ages, including the Story of Redemption. God be with you, peace.

REPLY TO D. HALL

Well said and stated. Your explanation was truly uplifting. As a Christian married to a NOW quasi practising Jewish man I have a long road to walk along BUT not alone. Thank you!

Excellent commentary D Hall!

Excellent commentary D Hall! You have hit the nail on the head. The dumbed down fluoridated sheeple look down their noses, and call RACIST to anyone who knows the agenda! People are too busy feeding their many addictions to notice or care!

re: Satanists Will Propagate Any Lie That Serves Their Ends.....

Satan is really Saturn. Saturn was the original "sun". Satan/Saturn is worshipped on Saturday. So, now you know who the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists really worship and serve. I knew that they were up to no good. It is possible that Big Arnie is one - he made a good Terminator.

JESUS IS REAL

Dr. Simon Greenleaf, former professor of law at Harvard University and once recognized by the Supreme Court to be perhaps the greatest authority on legal evidence who has ever lived, made a detailed examination of the evidence relating to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, quoted by L.A. Drummon and P.R. Baxter in the 1986 book How to Respond to a Skeptic. (Chicago: Moody Press, p 117.) He concluded that in any unbiased courtroom in the world, the evidence would establish the fact that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

The documentary evidence has been examined independently by millions of people, each of whom had the opportunity to find mistakes if there were any. St. Luke, for example, turns out to be as meticulous a geographer and historian as anyone now living. Calling his Gospel "mythology" is like calling Caesar's Gallic Wars "legendary." Contempt prior to investigation is no way to determine the facts. Unlike some religious literature, the Bible is filled with specific names, dates, places.

Fifty or sixty years ago it was commonplace to scorn these as legendary or inaccurate, but having such an attitude today requires one to ignore libraries full of research in history, archeology and linguistics. Which of course is your privilege; but the recently-published "Under the Influence" by Alvin Schmidt shows that virtually everything that makes the world today better than it was in Roman times stems directly from the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

To put it in simple terms, if these people are worshipping Satan then where did Satan come from? If Satan is real then so must be Jesus. If Jesus is the opposite to Satan, then Jesus must be good, for any human with a conscience will attest to the depravity and terrible evil described in this expose by these " frater people?"

So, if Jesus is really who he says that he is, the only begotten Son of God, then Satan must be the fallen Lucifer, who was thrown out of heaven and has set himself up against God and everything good, created by God, who in the written Bible is known as YHWH. So the Bible must be correct, because these prayers and chants repeated to Lucifer/Satan are really the opposite wording to the Lord's prayer, which was taken out of the Bible, New Testament.

If Satan is the unseen ruler of this earth then the Bible prophecy is proven true, because it says that the devil(Satan) the dragon was thrown down to the earth and will rule the earth for a short period of time. See the books of Daniel and Revelation. So all of these past world powers were really Luciferian or Masonic in and that is why Jesus was tempted by Satan offering him all the kingdoms of the earth and Jesus rejected him. That is why Christians were persecuted and considered "enemies" of the Roman empire.

You would only reject an offer if you had something of greater value than that offer? So in effect, the Father and Son are the rulers of the Cosmos and Satan is really the usurper of this earth. Satan has even lies to his own followers, since he is the father of lies and the origin of iniquity, which was the original sin in heaven and the beginning of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

Christ being God's co creator as of Proverbs 8.

This is an opportunity to personally examine the facts for yourself and not dismiss what the Christians, believers in the Bible and Ellen G White are saying. God is talking to you through the Bible and the instruments of his people which is incidentally all who believe, love and obey him and his representative, God with us -Jesus.

JESUS IS REAL?????

What a crock of absolute shite!!!! Have you ever read a book that is referenced? Dr. Simon Greenleaf was a noted paedeophile and Ellen G White fingered her fanny every day while shoving a figurine of Je-Zeus up her arse.

To put it in simple terms - Je-Zeus is NOT real! If Satan is real, then where did he come from? From the Tao, you f**king, dimwit - to help you learn and grow. But you are so stupid and ignorant that it is never going to happen.

You read crap and listen to those who are possessed by demons. Reading your posts disturbs me greatly - I feel like puncturing my eardrums and ripping out my eyes, such is the blasphemy. So vile is the contamination that you bring to this planet that you are to be despised as lower than the most filthy maggot or bacterium or plague.

You are a monster, preying on the innocent and the defenceless. I know what you are - a soulless droid attempting to steal immortality from we fragile humans. Yet, what we possess will never be yours - we will all perish together. Maybe that is the point to existence - ridding the world of ignorant dross such as yourself, so that real creation can take place.

Regarding anonybous

You need to see a psychiatrist asap and be scheduled because your in serious need of psychiatric intervention.

SUNDAY Is The "Venerable Day Of The Sun" Hence The Word SUNday

Excuse me, but you do not know what you are talking about.

SUNDAY is the "venerable day of the Sun" hence the word SUNday.

Satan means opposer and accuser of the brethren (God's people). He is a liar and the father of lies.

Hence the many Biblical references to the above where the Lord Jesus Christ reveals the truth to the Jews and later on his true followers and disciples through his testimony, the Holy Bible.

Saturday is named after Saturn, the SUN and Saturn are two completely different astral bodies in the solar system.

The names of the days of the week derive from the Norse god's, hence Wednesday is Woden and Thursday is Thors day. Friday is Friggs day, etc they are all pagan Nordic gods.

The English language anglicized these names but there origin and meaning remains the same.

SATURDAY is several languages across the world known as SABBATH, SABADO, SABBATON, SABATO etc, in fact there may be as many as 90 or more languages that call the Sabbath day as we know Saturday.

The origin of Sabbath is from creation, where the true God, Jehovah and His Son Jesus (ELOHIM)rested on that day and mankind is commanded to REMEMBER to do so from the 4th Commandment. The Sabbath is in honour of the Creator, that is why the Adventists keep it. The Jews keep it as part of the covenant, as they were the original people of the covenant, now through Jesus' atonement the forgiveness of sins is available to ALL men, when they accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and personal saviour and repent, receive grace, his perfect life through the gift of his holy spirit allowing man to keep his commandments, all 10. None have been done away with, for they reveal God's character, that he sent His Son Jesus, who was was willing to die for a lost race of sinful, rebellious people. The JW's do not worship on Saturday but observe Sunday, and pay homage to the Sun, and its god. Jehovah never sanctioned the changing of the Bible, or His Holy Law. these are all the inventions of men warring with their leader, who is referenced in the abominations of the earlier articles, against the Almighty God and His Son, the government of heaven.

The war was won for mankind on Calvary by Jesus Christ, that is why every knee will bow.

You need to get a copy of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan, by E.G White ( a true prophet) as it appears that you know very little about the Bible or prophecy and you have developed a heart hardened by prejudices against the very people that God has raised to deliver the last messages of mercy to this earth before Jesus(Michael the Great Prince) returns to take His people home and the world is destroyed by fire (cleansed by God).

I do not know what religion Arnie? is. Their is much speculation that he is allegedly a Nazi sympathiser, because his father was an Austrian military official linked with Hitler in WW2.

I doubt that Arnie would be be worshipping on the Sabbath day given Hitler's racism /anti semitism.

Regardless of what you have written, or which agenda's are pushed in this world. There is impressed upon me a burden to share with you the truth. I did not discover this website for nothing. I know someone out there will heed this message. God will avenge everything that has been done to these poor people. No one has the right to harm another person in such a way that has been previously described, the horror of this will be avenged By Him. You see the fact that we are still here and that Jesus hasn't returned in the clouds is because of God's mercy, to the righteous AND the wicked. Everything belongs to God and he will restore His creation, now is the day of salvation!

"The world is passing away and so is its desire, but he who does the will of God remains forever".

It is mine and God's prayer that you reexamine your prejudices and false beliefs about Him, his people as did Saul, who warred against the church, as a brand plucked from the fire (God's impending wrath upon the unrepentant and the father of lies) and became the greatest apostle.

Please reexamine the evidence and reason with God. Dear readers, examine the truth for yourselves.

There are many sheep in different folds and evil will not triumph, Jesus ascended to the Father and now sits as our high priest in heaven atoning for our sins, but we must repent. Do not believe the lies of the blind guides leading the blind, they have no idea of the day of the Lord!

All of these crimes committed against innocent people will be avenged by God, don't be fooled by the depravity of their evil heart or the sophistry of Satan. Please open your eyes and see the truth, we have one life and then the judgement!

Don't become drunk by the wine of Babylon, the false religions of this world> Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of abominations of the earth!

Go to Jesus and find the truth in His word, buy the King James and read it, search the scriptures and see if what I have said is not accurate. Read the book Great Controversy. Look up Jim Arrabito and Alberto Rivera, look up acts321.org, there are many more. God can forgive all sins, but you will need to repent and forsake the sins, the process of sanctification is a lifetime, but God knows your heart and will know your sincere attempt to reconcile with him. Heavenly agencies will assist you.

Please repent and open your eyes,

The least of his brethren.

Ellen G White Was A False Prophet

It is right to quote the word of God but it is not correct to quote the writings of a false prophet.
Most of Ellen G. White's prophecies NEVER HAPPENED!! Thus, according to the word of God, this makes her a "false prophet". Thus, it is nonsense and irresponsible to be quoting a false prophet.
If you do not believe what I am saying, then please take the time to research for yourself. You can google or yahoo the topic "Ellen G. White - a false prophet".

Youtube Video: Ellen G. White False Prophet? "MUST SEE" - 2 Minutes 46 Seconds

Youtube Video: SDA Shockers by Ellen G. White - 1 Minute 50 Seconds

Youtube Video: Questions SDA's Don,t want you to ask!!! - 2 Minutes 4 Seconds

False Prophets EXPOSED!


"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers... Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." —Titus 1:10,11

FALSE PROPHETS AND TEACHERS... Benny Hinn, T.D. Jakes, Robert Schuller, Marilyn Hickey, Paul and Jan Crouch, Rod Parsley, R.W. Shambach, Carlton Pearson, John Avanzinni, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, John Hagee, Jessie Duplantis, Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts, Kenneth Hagin Sr., Kenneth Hagin Jr., Frederick Price, Creflo Dollar, Rodney Howard Browne, Jack Van Impe, Rinehard Bonnke, Joyce Meyer, Morris Cerullo, John Kilpatrick, Clarence McClendon, Rick Joyner, Hal Lindsey, Charles Capps, Robert Tilton.

FALSE PROPHETS... Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, Kim Clement, Mark Charonna, Juanita Bynum, Brigham Young, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Jack Van Impe, John Kilpatrick.

HERETICAL BOOKS & MOVEMENTS ... New World Translation, Kenneth Copeland Study Bible, Book of Mormon, Brownsville Revival, Azusu Street Revival, Pensacola Outpouring, Holy Laughter, Slain in the Spirit, Gospel in the Stars, Endtime Restorationism, Perpetual 5-Fold Ministry, Free Masonry.

PROBLEMATIC TEACHERS ... Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, Joel Osteen.

Why these men are false teachers and prophets.....

Benny Hinn is about the most sought after false prophet and teacher today. Benny Hinn falsely predicted that all the homosexuals in America would die by fire in the late 1990's. Benny Hinn has confessed that there are 9 beings within the Godhead. 3 beings (Tritheism) each having their own trinity of beings within each. Benny Hinn teaches word-faith doctrine. Benny Hinn stated on TBN that after his crusade in South America in 2002, that he was certain that he would return to America with video footage of Jesus appearing on stage during the crusades, because Jesus had told him this was going to happen. Hinn also stated that very soon people would no longer need to take their deceased loved ones to the morgue. Instead, stated Hinn, they should be placed in front of the television during the airing of TBN and they would rise from the dead. We don't have enough paper to list all of the falseness of Hinns ministry.

T.D. Jakes denies the Trinity. That makes his church a cult. Jakes has many other false teachings including word-faith, and the prosperity gospel.

Robert Schuller, is a positive thinking guru who denies essential Christian doctrine.

Marilyn Hickey is a word-faith teacher teaching false doctrine. One of her tapes recods her having a conversation with her billfold, commanding the billfold to fill itself with greenbacks.

Paul Crouch is responsible for an unending open door welcoming false teachers and prophets to his pulpit no matter how outlandish their their aberant teachings may be. Croch has publicly stated that anyone who tests the teaching of any ministers on his programs will go straight to hell. Crouch has openly stated his desire to kill Christian apologists who point out heresy preached on his stations.

Rod Parsley is a word-faith preacher who specializes in whipping up his audiences into altered states of consciousness. His outlandish style is attractive to people who get emotionally carried away by repetitive music and mantras.

R.W. Shambach is an incredible con-artist used by CBN to raise money during their telethons. With scare tactics and false teaching, Shambach surgically convinces thousands to send their money to finance the heretical TBN .

Carlton Pearson has even been attacked by false teachers like T.D. Jakes for his support of the "doctrine of exclusion." This doctrine tries to reconcile Christianity and Islam, claiming the 2 religions are completely compatible.

John Avanzinni is a name-it-and-claim-it mega-star used by TBN whenever they want to promote the hundredfold blessing. Avanzinni also promotes the heresy that God's reason for creating humanity is to duplicate himself.

Kenneth & Gloria Copeland have one of the largest false ministries and influences in America. Copeland teaches that Adam was an exact duplicate of God. Copeland teaches that Jesus became a demonic being when he was crucified and had to go to hell and be born again. The Copelands attempt to specialize in word-faith teaching. Copeland calls God, the biggest loser in the Bible, and says Jesus was not God during his earthly life.

John Hagee calls Covenant Theologians heretics, because they do not make a distinction between the church and Israel in the New Testament. Branding them as the "carriers of Hitler's annointing", Hagee divides the body of Christ on secondary issues. Hagee is also extremely dogmatic in his eschatology, failing to understand that there are many diverse interpretations acceptable within the pale of orthodoxy.

Jessie Duplantis' ministry is riddled with errors. Presenting his messages with humor, Duplantis is a typical word-faith clone of Ken Copeland, often preaching from Copeland's pulpit.

Oral Roberts and son, Richard Roberts are both word-faith con-artists. Oral is the originator of the seed-faith doctrine. Have a need? Plant a seed. Large amounts of cash make the best seed for planting. Both men practice cultic doctrines of bringing their chorts into altered states of consciousness

SOURCE: http://defendchrist.org/false_teachers.htm
Link: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_prophets.htm

ELLEN G. WHITE - SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST
American Religious Leader

BIRTH - DEATH Ellen G. White - b. November 26,1827 d. July 16, 1915

EDUCATION - Ellen G. White - no education past 9 years old

MINISTRIES - Seventh-day Adventist Church, May 21, 1863

MAJOR WORKS - A Sketch Of Christian Experience, 1851
Spiritual Gifts, Vol 1,
Steps To Christ,
Patriarchs and Prophets,
Prophets and Kings,
The Desire Of Ages,
Christ's Object Lessons,
Thoughts From The Mount Of Blessing,
The Acts Of The Apostles,
The Great Controversy,
The Ministry Of Healing,

Ellen G. White, along with her husband James White, were the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Although James White was the head of the organization while he lived, it was Ellen G. White who provided the alleged visions and revelations from God that defined the doctrinal framework of the organization's teachings.

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH

The Seventh-day Adventist Church and the teachings of Ellen G. White developed out of the Millerite movement organized by William Miller in the 1840's. William Miller was a former Baptist preacher and formed his own religious views, stating that all churches had become apostate and were "Babylon," that all Christians were to leave those churches and join his movement, and that the second coming, or the advent, of Jesus Christ was imminent. He developed a teaching in which he claimed that he knew the exact year and day in which Jesus Christ would return. Ellen G. Harmon (later Ellen G. White) became a member and follower of the Millerite movement.

William Miller initially set the day for the return of Jesus Christ in 1843. When the second coming failed to occur, he set another date for March 21, 1844, which also failed and then another date for October 22, 1844, which again failed. The effect on the Millerite movement was a major disaster, and the failure of the return of Jesus Christ to appear was called the "Great Disappointment." The failed prophecies of William Miller proved that he was a false prophet, not only because of their failure, but also because of the fact that he contradicted Scripture which says that only God knows the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

After the failure of his movement, William Miller continued on by presenting a new teaching which attempted to justify the failure of Jesus Christ to return physically in 1844. He stated that the explanation was that it was not the second coming which was to occur, but the entrance of Jesus Christ into the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly sanctuary; a doctrine not taught in the Scriptures. He established a group called the Adventist Church and continued his teaching. While initially continuing with his Adventist teachings as a result of his new doctrine, William Miller eventually renounced his affiliation, admitted to his error and denounced the new doctrines that had been developed. He died in 1849.

Most followers of the original Millerite movement disbanded, but a small groups continued which were not directly connected with or under the authority of William Miller. One of those groups included Ellen G. Harmon (White). They justified their continuing belief by adopting William Miller's new explanation about the coming of Jesus Christ into the Holy of Holies. This interpretation provided the foundational structure for what would later become the "Investigative Judgement" doctrine adopted by Ellen G. White, which is also not taught in the Scriptures. Both beliefs were accepted and taught by Ellen G. Harmon (White). Out of those doctrines, Ellen G. Harmon (White) accepted the revelation about the "Shut Door." She taught that at the point when Jesus Christ entered into the Holy of Holies, no other persons could then be saved. The "door" of salvation was shut, people could no longer join the Adventist group (since they claimed to be the only ones with the truth from God) and therefore could not obtain eternal life.

Ellen G. Harmon (White) continued with the group with which she was affiliated and later met James White. They married in 1846 and with the union and the continuing visions of Ellen G. White, they were established as the leaders of what had become a revised Adventist movement and foundation of current Seventh-day Adventist theology. Seventh-day Adventist theology has very deep roots in the Millerite movement, but has progressed far beyond those basic teachings as a result of the visions claimed by Ellen G. White.

CURRENT DOCTRINAL STATEMENT

These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word.

1. The Holy Scriptures:

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

2. The Trinity:

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

3. The Father:

God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. The Son:

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. The Holy Spirit:

God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

6. Creation:

God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,'' declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

7. The Nature of Man:

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)

8. The Great Controversy:

All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:

In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)

10. The Experience of Salvation:

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

11. The Church:

The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

12. The Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

13. Unity in the Body of Christ:

The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

14. Baptism:

By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

15. The Lord's Supper:

The Lord's Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)

16. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:

God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

17. The Gift of Prophecy:

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

18. The Law of God:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

19. The Sabbath:

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

20. Stewardship:

We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.)

21. Christian Behavior:

We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)

22. Marriage and the Family

Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)

23. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

24. The Second Coming of Christ:

The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

25. Death and Resurrection:

The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

26. The Millennium and the End of Sin

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

27. The New Earth

On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST WEBSITE: www.adventist.org

PROPHETIC SPIRIT - ELLEN G. WHITE

The doctrinal statement of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, while appearing to be very orthodox on the surface, covers a multitude of problems that a prospective adherent will not know until after becoming involved with the organization. This is especially true in relation to article 26, "The Millennium and the End of Sin," which is completely aberrant in its teaching. But the greatest error is in relation to the Bible and the visions of Ellen G. White.

If the Seventh-day Adventist Church is orthodox in its doctrine and believes that the "...Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested," the question must be asked, how do the prophecies and teachings of Ellen G. White compare to the Bible? In addition, what prophecy did she give that was necessary, as an addition to the Biblical revelation? There is great controversy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church regarding the claims of Ellen G. White and the belief that she was a prophet. The Bible is very specific in regards to individuals who claim to prophesy by authority from God, and the reference is in Deuteronomy 18:17- 22.

According to Deuteronomy 18, only one false prophecy disqualifies a person from claiming to be a prophet of God. If one prophesies a false message, one that is not supported by the Scripture, even if the message comes true (Deuteronomy 13), the person is a false prophet. In the days of Moses, a false prophet was put to death. How does Ellen G. White compare to the Biblical standard for a true prophet?

1. CREDENTIALS:

Ellen G. White presented no credentials confirming her claim to receive visions and prophecies from God. Jesus Christ and the apostles could work miracles. They could heal and raise the dead. Ellen G. White could not heal and she could not raise the dead. Her prophesies and visions were self-proclaimed, presented as being truthful by her word alone.

2. BIBLICAL STANDARDS APPLIED

One of the hallmarks of all false religious systems is the introduction of an additional set of writings by which the Bible is to be judged or interpreted.

In the Mormon church, they have the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, other writings and the accounts of the visions of Joseph Smith. The Bible is judged by these writings and is subject to interpretation and authenticity by these writings. Joseph Smith also produced his own version of the Bible which does not adhere to the original text.

The Christian Science church has the Science and Health With the Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy and her various revelations. These writings also subvert the Bible and relegate it to a subservient position. The Bible is judged by the writings of Mary Baker Eddy.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have the writings and revelations of Charles Taze Russell, Judge Rutherford and every leader since that time who claim to continually have new revelation delivered to them by angels from God. They also have their own "translation" of the Bible which does not adhere to the original text.

Ellen G. White also claimed to have had revelations and visions that came directly from God and these have been compiled into volumes and are called her "Testimonies." They are a body of doctrine which are not designed to be investigated by the Bible, but are to be used as an interpretive tool in order to understand the Bible. She claimed that all of her visions and revelations were the words of God and could not be rejected or questioned.

"In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies [her self-proclaimed testimonies] of his spirit."
"It is hardly possible for men to offer a greater insult to God than to despise and reject the instrumentalities [her self-proclaimed testimonies] that he has appointed to lead these [Adventists]."

"If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies [her self-proclaimed testimonies] he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Kora, Dathan and Abiram."

She claims of her "testimonies" that they are "...the precious rays of light shining from the throne..."

"It is God, and not an erring mortal, that has spoken [her self-proclaimed testimonies]."
She also claimed that those who opposed her, and her authority, were "...fighting the Spirit of God. Those...who would break down our testimony [her self-proclaimed testimonies], I saw, are not fighting against us, but against God."

Since Ellen G. White claimed that her "testimonies" were the result of the direct words of God that she heard in her visions and trances, then they have the same authority as the Bible. She claimed that she wrote those revelations in two ways, (1) Describing in her own words the revelations that she received, which is the manner in which most of her testimonies are presented, and (2) Directly quoting the words of God that she claimed to have heard. Since her "testimonies" were the result of a revelation and the Bible is a revelation, there can be no other conclusion than that they are the same and must be believed in the same manner. At some point, the person who claims to receive revelation from God, always begins to assume that they have authority that they do not have and an ability to determine what is Scripture and what is not. This assumption is self-proclaimed and is abundantly true with Ellen G. White, when she stated the following:

"I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with several testimonies to the church."

The Bible is considered to be encased or surrounded by her testimonies. They are the greater authority and are the standard by which the Bible is to be interpreted. This is the position taken by the majority of Adventist adherents, in that the "testimonies" of Ellen G. White are authoritative and settle the issue, even when they conflict with the Biblical record. Like the other religious groups previously mentioned, the Bible is authoritative when it agrees with the statements of the leadership, but when it disagrees, the fault lies with the Bible or with the "interpretation" of it, which must be brought into agreement with the leadership rather than the leadership being brought into agreement with the Bible. The arrogance of power expresses itself well in false religious systems, because there is no immediate judgment by God of their heretical activities. As a result, leadership exalts itself even higher as they delude themselves into believing their own self-created doctrines.

The Seventh-day Adventist church today might deny that they place Ellen G. White's visions and revelations on the same level as the Bible. However, to do that denies the words of Ellen G. White herself, who claimed that her "testimonies" were on the same level as those revelations given to the prophets of old:

"In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies [her Testimonies] of his spirit."

To hold that belief makes them heretical in relation Ellen G. White and also in relation to what they claim about God. Were not the visions and revelations of Ellen G. White from the same God that revealed the Bible to the prophets and apostles of old? If they were from the same God, then to say that Ellen G. White's visions and revelations were not as important as those recorded in the Bible is to say that they have the ability and authority to determine the importance of what God wishes to reveal. They know better than God what is important and what is not. Will they admit to believing that when God speaks, some of His words are less important than others and can be ignored or degraded in value? The duplicity in claiming to hold that position is apparent.

Ellen G. White subjects the Bible to the scrutiny of her "Testimonies" through the agent of her own self-proclaimed authority, supposedly given by God. By what reason should a person accept the self-proclaimed words of Ellen G. White over those of the Mormon, Joseph Smith, or the Jehovah's Witness, Charles Taze Russell, or the Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy? All of them claimed to have received revelations from God, were self-proclaimed prophets, and all of them presented no credentials to verify their claims and all contradicted one another. Someone had to be wrong, and based on their track record of prophecies, it appears they were all wrong.

3. PROPHECIES EXAMINED:

THE SHUT DOOR, 1844

She says: "After the passing of the time of expectation, in 1844, Adventists still believed the Saviour's coming to be very near; they held that...the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased. Having given the warning of the judgment near, they felt that their work for the world was done, and they lost their burden of soul for the salvation of sinners.... All this confirmed them in the belief that probation had ended, or, as they then expressed it, 'the door of mercy was shut.'" Great Controversy, page 268.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

Elder G.I. Butler, in the Review and Herald, March 3, 1885, says: "As the time passed there was a general feeling among all the earnest believers that their work for the world was done." "There can be no question that for months after the time passed it was the general sentiment that their work of warning the world was over." "Their burden was gone, and they thought their work was done."
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

John Megquier, Saco, Me., a man noted for his integrity, writes: "We well know the course of Ellen G. White, the visionist, while in the state of Maine. About the first visions she had were at my house in Poland. She said that God had told her in vision that the door of mercy had closed, and there was no more chance for the world." The True Sabbath, by Miles Grant, page 70.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

Mrs. L.S. Burdick, San Francisco, California, was well acquainted with Mrs. White. She writes: "I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. At the time of my first acquaintance with them they were in wild fanaticism, used to sit on the floor instead of chairs, and creep around the floor like little children. Such freaks were considered a mark of humility. They were not married, but traveling together. Ellen was having what was called visions; said God had shown her in vision that Jesus Christ arose on the tenth day of the seventh month, 1844, and shut the door of mercy; had left forever the mediatorial throne; the whole world was doomed and lost and there never could be another sinner saved." L.S. Burdick, "True Sabbath," page 72.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

O.R.L. Crosier kept the Sabbath with them in 1848. He writes: "Ann Arbor, Mich., Dec. 1, 1887. Yes, I KNOW that Ellen G. Harmon, now Mrs. White, held the shut door theory at that date." Then he gives the proof. These persons knew the facts and have put their testimony on record.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

The Present Truth. James White, editor, Oswego, N.Y., May, 1850, has an article by the editor on the "Sanctuary, 2300 Days, and the Shut Door." Elder White says: "At that point of time [1844] the midnight cry was given, the work for the world was closed up, and Jesus passed into the Most Holy place.... When we came up to that point of time, all our sympathy, burden and prayers for sinners ceased, and the unanimous feeling and testimony was that our work for the world was finished forever.... He [Jesus] is still merciful to his saints, and ever will be; and Jesus is still THEIR advocate and priest; but the sinner, to whom Jesus had stretched out his arms all the day long, and who had rejected the offers of salvation, was LEFT WITHOUT AN ADVOCATE when Jesus passed from the holy place and shut that door in 1844." Any honest man can see that the shut door meant no salvation for sinners, and this is what Elder White taught in 1850.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

In a report of labor in the Advent Review, May 15, 1850, Elder White, in noticing the death of a sister Hastings, says: "She embraced the Sabbath in 1846, and has ever believed that the work of warning the world closed in 1844." Again: "Many will point us to one who is said to be converted, for positive proof that the door is not shut, thus yielding the word of God for the feelings of an individual." Present Truth, Dec. 1849. This shows that they held to the shut door idea for years after 1844. What a fanatical and abominable doctrine that was for Christians to teach! Mrs. White was right with them and in full harmony with them on this all these years. She had revelations almost daily. If they were of God, why did she not correct them in this fearful error? Even if she had said nothing confirming this delusion, yet the simple fact that she had no revelation contradicting it all during these years, is enough to destroy her claim to inspiration. But the fact is, she taught this error as strongly in her visions as the brethren did in their arguments.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

Here are her own words:
"March 24, 1849.... I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated.... I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase and spread. The reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth but from bad to worse, for those who professed a change of heart had only wrapped about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive God's people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me to look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past." Present Truth, pages 21-22, published August, 1849.
From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter VIII - "Mrs. White and her Revelations," by D.M. Canright, 1914

The doctrine of the "Shut Door" is a false doctrine. It was developed in an attempt to save the prediction of the coming of Jesus Christ in 1844, that failed, and give the prophecy an invisible fulfillment in heaven. The idea that Jesus Christ presides in heaven in a temple like the earthly temple of the Jews is not found in the Bible.

The idea of the shut door and the fulfillment of the coming of Jesus Christ in 1844, was initially sanctioned by William Miller, but very soon he rejected the teaching and disassociated himself from the Adventist group, stating that he had made an error in the prediction. Since the prophecy, and the related doctrines, were of his creation, the new teaching about the "Shut Door" had no basis in Biblical fact and no basis in the doctrine and teaching of William Miller, who denounced it.

The doctrine of the "Shut Door" was rejected in the lifetime of Ellen G. White and is not part of Seventh-day Adventist doctrine today.

The prophecy and doctrine regarding the "Shut Door" was false and therefore, by the Biblical standard found in Deuteronomy 18:17-22, Ellen G. White was a false prophet and none of her prophecies have any authority in relation to God or to spiritual matters.

There are those who would say that the Biblical injunction in Deuteronomy 18 does not apply to Ellen G. White because they say she never claimed to be a prophet. However the deception in that claim is apparent to any discerning individual. Ellen G. White claimed to receive visions in which messages and doctrines were given to her by God, which she was to make known to the church. That process is accomplished through a prophetic gift and office that Ellen G. White had, as is claimed by the Seventh-day Adventist church in Article 17 of their Doctrinal Statement. Therefore, the question is moot. If a prophet speaks prophecies, then a person who speaks prophecies is a prophet, whether real of false.

DOCTRINAL ERRORS

From: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, Chapter 1, by D.M. Canright, 1914

A people who have made as many mistakes as Adventists have, ought to be very modest in their claims, and ought to see that they have been led by men and not by the Lord.

1. They set the time for the end of the world in 1843, and failed.

2. They set it again in 1844 and failed.

3. Elder White, the leader of the Seventh-day Adventists, set 1845 for the end, and failed again.

4. They held in 1844 that the earth was the sanctuary, another mistake, as they admit now.

5. They all held for some time after 1844 that probation for sinners was ended - a fearful mistake.

6. For ten years Seventh-day Adventists began the Sabbath at 6 P.M., instead of at sunset as now. Thus they broke the Sabbath every week!

7. They kept their children out of school for years, because time was so short they would need no education. Those children now have grand-children!

8. They gave away their goods in 1844, because they would not need them after that!

9. They would not vote, for that was like the fallen churches. Now they vote freely.

10. They held that it was wrong to take a church name, for that was Babylon. Now they have a name.

11. Church organization was wrong, for that was like Babylon. Now they organize.

12. For years they said it was denying their faith to set out trees, for they would never grow to bear fruit.

13. Led by a revelation from Mrs. White, the sisters put on short dress with pants. None of them wear it now.

14. For thirty years they would not take up any collection on the Sabbath. Now they do it every week.

15. For fifty years they have been expecting the end of the world to come inside of five years, and it has not come yet.

16. They said Jesus would come to the earth in 1844. Now they say that was a mistake; he came to judgment in the sanctuary above. Thus: "The Adventists of 1844...thought the bridegroom would come; and THEN HE DID COME - not to this earth, as they incorrectly supposed, but to the MARRIAGE." "They simply mistook the KIND of coming referred to." U. Smith, in Parable of the Ten Virgins, page 13,14. He owns that: (1) They got the time wrong in 1843. (2) The place wrong. (3) The event wrong. Now let him add, (4) The whole thing wrong, and he will be right!

17. Then they said the door was shut, Matt. 25:10; now they say that this was wrong; it is open yet. Thus: "There can be no other place for the shut door but at the autumn of 1844." Elder White, in Present Truth, May 1850. "The door is still open, and other guests may come." U. Smith, in Parable of the Ten Virgins, page 17, February, 1889. These are the people who always KNOW they are just right!

18. They once adopted a rigid vegetarian diet - not meat, no butter, only two meals per day, etc., but it was a failure. It killed many and ruined more, till they had to modify it and live like other people.

These are only samples out of numerous mistakes the Adventists have made; and this they have done with an inspired prophetess right at their head for forty-four years! These simple, undeniable facts alone should be enough to open the eyes of all to see that the Lord has not led them in their work.

CONCERNS

Many people in the apologetics area have struggled trying to define the position of the Seventh- day Adventist Church. Are they a denomination, a sect or a cult? There seems to be no agreement. Perhaps the problem is complicated by the fact that the Seventh-day Adventist Church itself is not sure exactly what it believes and also has changed its beliefs so many times over the years. In addition the attempt to remain identified with Ellen G. White, who was, without question, a false prophet, lowers the credibility of the claims by the leadership that they believe the same way as orthodox Christians.

The major question is, does the Seventh-day Adventist Church teach a true salvation message? The question is difficult to answer, because like many orthodox churches, the salvation message becomes garbled or is ignored by the inclusion of so many other elements. In addition, all pastors are not the same and do not preach or emphasize the same message. The best that can be said for the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the salvation message can be found amid all the other peripheral issues that clutter the clarity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The greatest question for the person who is a true believer in Jesus Christ is, why would you wish to stay in the Seventh-day Adventist Church in light of its aberrant and heretical history and continuing elevation of a false prophet to a position of authority? That is a serious difficulty that requires some serious thinking.

END OF ARTICLE

by Gary A. Hand
On Doctrine

Link: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10sevadv.htm

GARRY TRUE TO HIS JESUIT AGENDA TO PROMOTE LIES AND DISTORTION

A LIAR AND DECIEVER THAT DISTORTS THE FACTS - SEE FOR YOURSELF - READ HER WRITINGS IN THEIR TRUE CONTEXT NOT MISQUOTES- SHE WAS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IN REVELATION - GET YOURSELF A COPY OF THE PROPHET OF DESTINY AND YOU WILL SEE THE TRUTH - NOT THESE LIES SPREAD TO CATCH UMWARY SOULS - GOD BE WITH YOU READER...

In Defense of Ellen G White
by
Devon Grey
PART I
Since the Internet has arrived on the scene, some individuals have taken it upon themselves to discredit and smear the name and works of the prophetess Ellen G. White. Their goal seems to be to convince people that she was a false prophet. Little do they know that they are supporting the cause of darkness. Neither do they know the truth about her. They get their information from files readily available from the White Estate and from people who have written about her with malevolent intentions and an unholy agenda. They spend much time and effort in researching her writings with only one goal in mind—to try and disprove her as a fraud and phony. As the saying goes, "you will find what you are looking for." How sad it is that some with a vendetta against her writings totally ignore the wealth of beautiful and inspirational material, itself inspired from above.
The most damaging book ever written about Ellen White, "The White Lie," by Walter Rea, is now on the Internet for all to see. Maybe this is a good thing, for now we know how and where the enemy is attacking, which puts us in a position to counterattack. This article is the first of two or three that is sounding a warning in defense of the Spirit of Prophecy as revealed primarily through Ellen White. But there are other individuals called by the Lord who are also being maligned. It is to be expected that the Lord’s true chosen messengers in this time of earth’s history would be viciously attacked as they proclaim the truth.

Was Ellen White a true or false prophet? This is the question we hope to answer. This is the bottom line. If she is a true prophet, it is to the reader’s eternal benefit to explore the wealth of heavenly light given to her. If the Lord in love and mercy did not deem this light important, it certainly would not have been given. On the other hand if she is not the Lord’s messenger, then we should not waste our time reading her lies. She was either from the Lord or she wasn’t. The purpose of this article and the ensuing ones, is to present information about Ellen White, her life, and experience, which will make it possible for the reader, to come to an honest conclusion.

To date, most of what is available is only against her. We will present the other side,—tell "the rest of the story"— as Paul Harvey, radio commentator says. By the way, he is a believer in Ellen White and her gift, and has several times openly and warmly spoken about her on the radio.

The Problem:

A big problem of Ellen’s detractors and accusers is that they have failed to recognize the difference between Ellen White THE PROPHET and Ellen White THE AUTHOR. Neither have they recognized the difference between Ellen White THE PROPHET and Ellen White the woman, wife, mother, and friend. In short her human side. They have tried to dehumanize her, painting her as something she is not. Making her out to be an ugly woman with malevolent intentions. This is character assassination, not unlike what was done with the Jews during World War 2 in Germany.

There are important differences between these three roles. To try to judge a prophet by either of the last two roles means you will find discrepancies, flaws and errors. After all, being part of the human race does have its limitations, even for Prophets. They are subject to the same emotions, frailties and thought processes as anyone else.

The late author and writer René Noorbergen wrote a book in 1973 about Ellen White (as well as several others, including one about Jean Dixon, Clairvoyant) called "Ellen G. White, Prophet of Destiny." In his years of researching for this book, he learned as much and probably far more about Ellen White than her detractors and accusers. Noorbergen was an experienced research writer with years of experience. He always tried to be objective in his writing. He was not looking to find fault with Ellen, but rather to look for evidence that either proved or disproved her special gift.

Eight years later, on November 29 of 1981, he wrote a letter to a lady, Ms. Herbey, in response to her question about whether he was going to write another book about Ellen White. The reason she asked was because, since he had published his original book "Prophet of Destiny," in 1973, Walter Rea, ex-Adventist minister had seven years later published a book "The White Lie." Charges of plagiarism were leveled at Ellen’s writings, which was ridiculous, for in her day, there were no laws regarding using other peoples material. If somebody’s work added to what was being written, it was used. Yes, they often did give credit to the person, but that was not a requirement in those years. Another consideration is Ellen White, because of her 3 years of formal education felt she needed help on English syntax, punctuation, etc., not only from her husband, but also by a staff of helpers. But that is not to fault her for her greatest works were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is especially true of or her 5 Conflict of the Ages books.

When Rea’s book came out, Noorbergen, being the researcher that he was, went to visit Rea. What he had to say delineates clearly the points of confusion about not only Ellen White, but also every prophet that has ever lived from Old Testament times on.

This is a quote from his November letter: ".... I do wish the White Estate had been more open with me and given me access to the original sources instead of giving me only what they wanted me to use for ‘Prophet of Destiny,’ for I do feel that I have not been given the correct information in many instances, and I do deplore this sort of information manipulation.

"As to the Walter Rea’s research material—that is a different story. I have seen most of it at his home at my own request, and am astounded at the tremendous collection of material he has gathered. It has strengthened my developing conviction that we should ‘divide’ EGW into EGW the Prophet, and EGW the Author. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT GOD USED HER AS A PROPHET TO GUIDE AND DIRECT THE CHURCH IN ITS FORMATION AND DEVELOPMENT, (emphasis added) and that her inspired counsel was extremely valuable for the early SDA Church. On the other hand, she was also a woman with a third grade education - no more. Yet, because of her connection with God she became deeply concerned about people and wanted to share her convictions in books—something she was unable to do with her limited education. As a result, she gathered around her a number of people who, as editors and secretaries, helped her in the construction of these books. But—she made mistakes. We should never forget that much of what was written by her was the result of thought inspiration, NOT THOUGHT INSPIRATION ITSELF. Other areas were plainly borrowed, rewritten, rephrased, etc. Yet in the end it turned out to be good Christian literature with a good solid message, but, in my opinion, not necessarily written by Ellen G. White the Prophet, but by Ellen G. White the Author. Do I make myself clear?

"Walter Rea’s research points out some of the tremendous mistakes that have been made in the compilation of some of the manuscripts, but THIS DOES IN NO WAY DIMINISH THE IMPORTANCE OF EGW AS A PROPHET. (Emphasis added) David was a man ‘after God’s own heart,’ yet look what he did! We have to make allowances for the fact that she was a normal human being, making the same mistakes all of us make. The big problem lies with the White Estate. They have known all this for years but never admitted any of it. Now it is left to the highly critical book by Walter Rea to tell the world about it. If our church had not "sainted" Ellen G. White all these years but had treated her as a prophet, and an author, and had made a sharp distinction between the two, and allowed her to make the normal mistakes any author can make, there would never have been a book by Walter Rea. I hope you can see my point. I STILL BELIEVE IN EGW AS A PROPHET OF GOD (emphasis added) for the SDA Church, but I do not believe in the right of the SDA Church to concoct such a tremendous cover-up. SHE WOULD NEVER HAVE APPROVED OF IT EITHER—OF THAT I AM SURE. (emphasis added) "... In writing this, I have said more than I intended to, for I seldom express my opinions about this subject. I do hope that you can understand my position. As to the future—I am sure Walter’s book will send shock-waves throughout the Church, but the positive effects of it will be that it will turn the members back to studying the Bible instead of hiding behind Ellen G. White quotations. We have to be able to live as Christians, basing our entire faith on the Bible alone, and use EGW as an additional guideline— no more and no less. The Bible still has to remain the guiding rule of our faith." Sincerely yours, René Noorbergen.

Having said this, I would like to share with you a few quotes from Noorbergen’s book— a little of what he found that convinced him Ellen White was a true prophet of God. The flyleaf of the book puts it succinctly: "Around the turn of the century, and in some cases more than one hundred years ago, Ellen G. White warned:

` •San Francisco will face destruction
•Tobacco is a malignant poison
•Cancer is a germ (virus)
•Ex-rays can be dangerous
•Cities will become polluted
•Unrest and drug addiction among youth will become world problems.

Today, these and so many other Ellen G. White prophecies have either been proved true or are on their way toward becoming accepted facts of life....

The extent of her prophecies-coming true is awesome. She warned of the dangers of tobacco in 1864, at a time when some doctors were actually prescribing smoking as an aid for lung disease! She spoke out against a diet overly heavy in fats and sugar long before medical authorities became aware of their detrimental effects on the human body. In the 1860’s she wrote about cancer in ways which foreshadowed today’s research discoveries. In 1906 she recognized the dangers of excessive use of X-rays. These and other concepts were made known to her through more than 2,000 visions, which she received for over 60 years throughout her lifetime.

Some of her forecasts in the 1850’s and 1880’s, of developments to take place in the religious world (like the coming Sunday law) are just now being fulfilled with astounding accuracy.

Mrs. White’s achievements are all the more amazing when one reads of the overwhelming obstacles, which confronted her throughout her life. Born in 1827, she suffered an accident when she was nine years old, which forced her to discontinue formal schooling. Perhaps it was this, which subsequently led her to depend upon spiritual values so heavily, and ultimately to become so great a force for humanity.

Ellen G. White experienced her first vision at age seventeen and continued her spiritual counseling and writings for seven decades, until her death in 1915.

With James White, whom she married in 1846, Mrs. White had four sons, two of whom died before reaching adulthood. It was her experience as wife and mother, which enriched and gave special meaning to her writings on home life, parenthood and the unique importance of prenatal influence and care, concepts, which are recognized today as having substantial validity.

With her husband, she helped to establish the Seventh-day Adventist Church which (as of 1973 when Noorbergen’s book was published) spread-eagles throughout the world, encompassing 48 publishing houses, 4,000 elementary schools, 460 high schools and colleges, two universities, 300 hospitals, clinics and a medical school. Her work was mainly in the United States crossing and criss-crossing the land by carriage, sleigh and ultimately steam trains, though she spent two years in Europe and almost a decade in Australia and New Zealand, lecturing, writing, building and counseling.

Her body of writing, of books in print, makes her perhaps one of the biggest, best selling authors in the world literature; and perhaps one of the least known by popular standards. (Paul Harvey commented on the radio that Ellen White was the most prolific woman writer of all time. Her book and written material, all written in long hand, stacked up on the floor reach up 8 feet to the ceiling.)

Ellen G. White died in 1915, in her eighty-eighth year. Her legacy to the world speaks for itself.

With this introduction to Ellen White, let us now consider a few specifics.

From the Beginning:

From the very beginning Ellen White had her detractors, those who called her a fraud, charlatan, a spiritualist, medium, psychic, hypnotist, etc. These attacks went on throughout most of her life.

The reasons for this are obvious when one reads what she wrote. The Bible says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the forces of darkness. What was shown to Ellen White was information that Satan did not want the world to know, for it uncovered, not only his past and present activities, but also his future plan for world conquest and his final encounter and defeat at the hand of Jesus his arch rival.

The one most important book she ever wrote was called "The Great Controversy." This book, for the first time, showed the behind the scenes of a battle being waged between Christ and Satan. The Lord revealed these things to her for many years, and then in 1858 she was told to write this book, and that it would be circulated around the world. To date, millions of copies of this book, under different titles, have been sent out to the whole world. Copies have been sent to every municipal, county, city, state, and government official, in the United States. It has been sent to every minister and lawyer also, as well as many leaders in other countries. Millions have been dispersed in every major city in the USA as well as in many rural areas around the world. Thus the Lord’s message to Ellen almost 150 years ago has been and is being fulfilled to the letter.

This is a remarkable achievement in itself, and may be the primary reason that Ellen White is presently being so vehemently attacked. When she was told to write this book, the enemy became very alarmed and tried his best to keep this from happening. This one book, more than any other, aside from the Bible, blew his cover, unmasking him for who he was and is, and the methods he has and was using to deceive and draw the world into his net.

The circumstances surrounding the major vision of Ellen’s life, and especially what happened to her during the writing of this book (The Great Controversy), clearly shows that Satan was very anxious to keep this information from getting out. It is without question the reason why she was in life attacked and berated, and now in death maligned and discredited. But let us back up a bit and go to page 128 of Noorbergen’s book "Prophet of Destiny." He states his case well.

"To be a prophet—dealing with unerring guidelines projected by the Author of Prophecy (God)--must be awe-inspiring, for it enables a mere mortal to peek across the threshold of the future and observe God arranging history in advance...

The record of Ellen White as a prophet is not one based purely on the fulfillment of prediction, yet even though she never laid boastful claim to being a prophet, she most definitely did the work of one, and more. Her medical insight was faultless in every way; her spiritual foresight was just as broad and grand in scope, for her prophetic warnings were strong and far-reaching. From the moment of her first vision, Ellen White openly claimed that it was the power of God, which spoke through her as He had done through other prophets in ages past.

Whether God required her to have reached a certain mental maturity before giving her the most important vision of her entire life, is something we do not know. But it was not until 1858, the year, which ushered in her thirty-first birthday, that the wondrous event occurred.

It was the weekend of March 13 and 14 that Ellen and her husband attended a series of religious meetings in Lovett’s Grove near Bowling Green, Ohio. The regular meetings were interrupted during the day of the fourteenth when it was decided to conduct a funeral service in the little schoolhouse, which also served as a meeting hall. Delighted to have the Whites with them, those present asked James to address the small congregation. No sooner had he concluded his remarks than Ellen stood up, desiring to add a few words of comfort. After her first few words, she faltered...and stopped in the middle of a sentence. Then it happened. A moment of pregnant silence followed, when suddenly she shouted triumphantly, as if forcing her way through a dark cloud.

"Glory to God...Glory to God...GLORY TO GOD!" this time not fading out as was the usual case when she was taken into vision, but shouted with increasing emphasis.

Startled, the audience tensed and looked questioningly at both Ellen and her husband. Slowly, James White got up from his chair and ever so quietly walked over to his wife, and while her face took on an expression of intense concentration, with eyes gazing unblinkingly into the distance, he faced the congregation.

"She is in vision...my wife is in vision..." he whispered softly to the hushed audience. Cognizant of the fact that he was addressing a number of people to whom Ellen’s Gift of Prophecy was not known, he reverently explained how, since her seventeenth year, his wife was often called into vision, and that each time this happened, she was completely detached from her surroundings. His claim that her breathing ceased while in this condition caused many of them to press forward and crowd around her.

"Bring a mirror," James asked in a low tone, and while holding it close to her mouth, he carefully pointed out that the total absence of condensation on the glass proved that her breathing had stopped. A second test, this time with a burning candle held only inches from her nose and mouth, was made, but not a flicker of moving air disturbed the tranquillity of the flame. Stunned, aghast by this unusual phenomenon, the onlookers watched as Ellen slowly made her way through them, gracefully moving her arms, occasionally smiling, and more often giving the impression of staring at scenes transpiring beyond mortal vision, watching secrets that were solely intended for her.

For two long hours she remained in vision, sometimes moving, other times just standing, staring, listening, observing with her spiritual eyes what was being revealed to her. Then came her first deep breath which always signified the beginning of her return to consciousness. Another followed...and then another...slightly bewildered, she glanced at the anxious faces about her and as the memory of her vision became clear, she realized once again that she had been taken into Supreme confidence.

Writing of this vision two years later, she said:

In the vision at Lovett’s Grove, most of the matter which I had seen ten years before concerning the great controversy between Christ and Satan, was repeated, and I was instructed to write it out. I was shown that while I should have to contend with the powers of darkness, for Satan would make strong effort to hinder me, yet I must put my trust in God, and angels would not leave me in the conflict." Scores of visions had passed before her; however, this time Ellen was transported into the undeniable dimension of time before and beyond that of recorded history and was made witness to the War in Heaven, the rebellion and fall of Lucifer. Watching the tragedy unfold, she stood appalled and shocked at the infidelity of one who was once an exalted angel.

The files of the Ellen G. White Estate contain all of her recollections of that famous vision, with many passages expressing her emotions of sadness and astonishment as her mind’s consciousness locked in on the prophetic impulses of God."

Note: Noorbergen then goes on for several pages quoting Ellen White and what she saw, starting with scenes in heaven before Lucifer fell and became Satan. Finishing her quotes he then continues with the narrative.

"In rapid sequence, the crowning events of Biblical history passed before Ellen’s mind. In quiet amazement she observed the ancient patriarchs and consecrated prophets lead the people of Israel; she saw Moses receive the Ten Commandments on the Mount of Sinai and recoiled in horror as she heard the singing of the apostate Israelites and watched them dedicate the golden calf. On and on her perception went, and her mental anguish became more consuming as she personally witnessed the birth of Christ, only to see it end on a cross, seemingly ignored by heaven. Via the apostolic times, she gazed with abhorrence at the massacres of the early Christians, then proudly viewed the work of the reformers. She was slowly brought back to her own times, watching current history evolve; then transported again—this time into the future—to the events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ, and was grieved by the heart-tearing scenes of the final judgment of man.

It was indeed a prophetic vision unequaled in both scope and magnitude. She had been taken into full confidence...now it was up to her to act.

The following day, homeward bound on the train, Ellen discussed with James her vision at length and formulated her plans for the writing of the book covering the great conflict as it was shown to her. Her health was reasonably good at the time, and there seemed to be nothing that would prevent her from carrying out this new challenge. It was Ellen who suggested, while passing through Jackson, Michigan, en route to their home in Battle Creek, to make a stop at the home of Daniel Palmer, an old friend. Scarcely had they arrived at the Palmers’, when Ellen underwent a frightening sensation.

"...My tongue refused to utter what I wished to say, and seemed large and numb," she recalled. "A strange cold sensation struck my heart, passed over my head and down my right side. For a time I was insensible, but was aroused by the voice of earnest prayer. I tried to use my left limbs, but they were perfectly useless."

Suffering from a severe stroke, she lost all hope of recovery. However, with her slowly returning strength and renewed faith in her mission, she began to rally and immediately started writing the manuscript, relaying her experiences while in vision at Lovett’s Grove. In June, as she was in the completion stage of her book, she received light concerning what she had undergone at the Palmers’ home.

‘I was shown in vision that in the sudden attack at Jackson, Satan intended to take my life, in order to hinder the work I was about to write.’ she pointed out, "but the angels of God were sent to my rescue.’ It was not until September of that same year that her work was finished and the 219-page Spiritual Gifts—The Great Controversy—was ready for distribution.

Since she witnessed the origin of the struggle for eternal survival, it is no wonder that most of the writings of Ellen White dealt with fundamentally the same subject: that of guiding people out of this degrading dilemma that originated in heaven....

...Whereas her vision of 1863 can be regarded as the most important health-reform vision she had ever received, the 1858 revelation has often been called the most comprehensive vision, covering both the fall of man and the great plan of escape. Of all her two thousand revelations, none are comparable in overall significance to this one."

We will say much more about the life, times, and visions of Ellen White in future articles, but the point is already very clear for anyone who wants to know and accept the truth. Just as Satan attacked Ellen White when she started to write The Great Controversy, so today he is continuing his attack to discredit her and this book, which is being so widely distributed. This book outlines how the enemy worked to develop his religious counterfeit kingdom as represented by the papal system of Rome (not individuals). Indeed, some of those presently attacking Ellen White and her testimony on the Internet are known Catholics. But know this, the Lord has very many of His own still in the Catholic Church. They love the Lord with all their hearts.

The Lord in tender love and mercy is warning the world through this book that cataclysmic events will soon, much sooner than any expect, burst upon this Old World. He has identified all the leading players involved in this last great drama. As Jesus said "a time of trouble such as has never been since there was a nation." We are the NOW generation that will see this happen. The ONLY generation in the history of the world who will witness the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. We are the LAST generation, which will experience the very last death throes of planet earth and its inhabitants.

According to what the Lord showed Ellen, the next big spiritual event to come will be the Sunday law and receiving the mark of the beast or 666. Time will soon tell who is on what side. When Ellen’s detractors find out that they were fighting God, how will it be with them? What will they have to say then?

Consider This:

If Ellen’s messages were not from the Lord, they would not agree with the Word of God. But they do agree 100%. Then too if her messages were not from God, why was it that Satan tried so hard to keep her from writing, and now trying to discredit her and get people to disbelieve her writings?

In Conclusion:

It is obvious to anyone who wants to know the truth that Ellen was given a heavenly gift of dreams and visions for over 60 years. It should also be recognize that there are not only true prophets but also false ones who today comprise the vast majority.

The reader should be able to recognize by now that the basic problem is understanding. When accusers try to validate a prophet in terms of the prophet’s human traits of character, they cannot be objective. Being a prophet does not make them superhuman. Adding to Noorbergen’s differentiation between EGW the Prophet, and EGW the author, we can add yet a third distinction to this—EGW as part of the human race. Just because a prophet (often called "messenger") is communicated with from heavenly sources, this does not make them any less human or immune to all the frailties and emotions of humanity.

There is not a single Bible prophet who did not at some time in their life display their human side. In fact some (like Isaiah and Jeremiah) gave their lives for bringing messages that were unpopular with the people. Prophets bore a terrible responsibility, placed upon them by God. When God told them to do something they had to obey.

Often a messenger’s human side is overlooked. They are either set up on a pedestal by people who almost worship them, or they are hated and abused, called phonies and frauds, etc. They are either looked upon as some sort of guru whose every word is inspired, or accused of being a false prophet. The lot of a prophet is a hard one. Then there are those who cling to every word that proceeds out of their mouth as if it came from God. No room here for human thoughts and ideas. This sad state of mind is grossly unfair to the messenger. For the messenger is encouraged by these actions to say things that are their own thoughts, but which they begin to believe is of heavenly origin. Thus enters the element of pride, which sometimes causes the prophet to fall.

The detractors, in an effort to discredit the messenger, focuses on the human side of the person, finding faults to tear the person apart, thus hoping to prove that the person is a false prophet. This is exactly what some are trying to do with Ellen White and her testimony. Thus they hope to convince others that the prophet could not be a true prophet, for they would not have said or acted as they have.

In the beginning of this article, I made the statement that this is a spiritual battle, which will soon reach a fearsome climax. The battle between Christ and Satan is now approaching the point where it will become very visible. The impugning of both the messenger and his or her message is just the beginning. The enemy has many willing workers in the form of men doing his dirty work. The enemy has pulled out all the stops in one last desperate effort to drag down as many with him as he can, to cause them to lose eternal life. We are living in the end of time, and are approaching the last great Battle of Armageddon, which will be worldwide, and both a spiritual and physical battle.

The forces of darkness are aligning against the forces of light. Soon it will be very visible. We are as it were in the calm before the storm. Soon Jesus will step out of the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary just as Ellen White was shown. When that happens he will put on his garments of vengeance and the seven last plagues will begin to fall. Soon we will see the sign of the Son of God in the heavens. The stars will fall, the sun will be darkened and the moon will be as blood. This is the sign that will indicate that the judgment of the living has ceased, and that the seven last plagues are about to fall. Where will you be dear reader? Will you be ready to meet the Lord? Or will you be with those who are against God. There is only one thing that should concern you—your relationship with Jesus. He wants all of your heart now. His Holy Spirit is trying to prepare you by fitting you with a wedding garment (the robe of Christ’s righteousness). Only the relationship you establish now with God will count in the days ahead. An intimate, personal, love relationship with the Lord Jesus will insure our survival in the days ahead. We hope you will seek the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind. Seek the truth as it is in Jesus.

There are ravening wolves out there that will seek to seduce and deceive you. But if you are anointed with the Holy Spirit, he will teach you all things, which is the truth and does not lie (1 John 2:26-27).

Part 2

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Devon Grey

Seven Thunders

I challenge you to foretell what would happen in lets say 90 yrs

I challenge you to foretell what would happen in lets say 90 years from now to the letter.

Ellen White saw the fall of the twin towers in NYC ie September 11, she saw tall buildings , supposedly indestructible and fireproof, many stories high fall down and burn as chaff, she saw the firefighters become confused, she saw people flying for their lives and many lives lost- this is exactly what happened.

The Jesuits all study her writings to be able to discredit her because they take them out of context to appear to show her as a false prophet to those who lack the biblical understanding.

you are like the other ex nominal Adventist people who misquote her writings in these disgusting video presentations to label her a false prophet.

How many false prophecies did Nostradamus predict yet people base their whole life on his teachings, what of astrology, numerology and psychic mediums - you have to be kidding me how inaccurate most of them are not to mention how they rip people off - you cannot base an argument on lies and false representations hypocrite - you are foolish if you think we haven't seen these lies about eg white before.
oh have you read the book of revelation lately- who are the saints that have the testimony of Jesus and what is the testimony of Jesus but spirit of prophecy then?

I rest my case you did more to promote the pioneers of the Adventist church as the remnant church and the forefathers of the remnant of revelation than any other critic on this website, congratulations God works in mysterious and marvelous ways and I am sure that she will be vindicated by all who seek the truth and that are led by the spirit of God without a shadow of a doubt - by the way did you check out acts321.org yet - you will get the true picture of the Adventist church condition in the last days. God bless.

I challenge any person to pick up all of her written works that this above article was quoted from and check your sources.

I am not even going to rebut you - just go online and thoroughly check out the sources you will see how the subject matter has nothing to do with your distortions - its a matter of time and place.

Oh about the short skirt and pants - that was the American costume and at that time or era all women wore tiny corsets that caused premature death and respiratory and reproductive illnesses- and short pants as underwear -she was liberating them from this burden- she did not make or force anyone to wear it. what she did advocate was conservative dress and not adorning with over use of hair pieces, clown makeup, jewelry and fancy clothes- in fact she even gave away beautiful dresses as gifts to the poor or sold them to support the work favouring her plain uniform.all this before the suffragettes, she did more to elevate the status of women then we will ever know, more for equality and freedom of slaves in America, more for health and family life then she will ever be given credit for-she told the truth, which arrogant deceivers like you do not give her credit for because we as a society are not given the full picture by the people in so called power who are working toward the Antichrist agenda.

Sabbath SDA - From Bro William Branham On The Keeping Of Days

Here is a quote from Bro William Branham on the keeping of days etc.

Let me know your thought, Bro Jon.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
32-Q-4 4. Would you explain Sunday is the first day of the week and Saturday is the seventh day? Christians go to church on Sunday, the first day of the week. Shouldn't they go on Saturday, the seventh day of the week?

Well, now, dear friend, ever who asked that, that's a very good question. It's an old question is argued among thousands of students today, but could I--just let me give my version. You see, is all I can do. If I'm not right, well, you--you bear with me; God forgive me (You see?) if--if I make it wrong.

33-132 And God rested the seventh day, His memorial rest day. I'm saying that like that on the benefit of this might be a--a Seventh-day Adventist brother or sister (See?), and they have a lovely church. And now notice, I just would different with them a little bit on--on this question.
Now, God hallowed the seventh day. Six days was man. Seventh day was God's rest day, which was a type, a type of the millennium. Now, now notice this how--how it blends in. Now, when Jesus came to the earth, what crucified Jesus was that He didn't keep the sabbath day; the only two accusations they had against Jesus was that He broke the sabbath day and made Himself God. And He said He was Lord of the sabbath. He had... He was also God's Sabbath and He was God. So they had no way of accusing Him.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
34-134 Now, let me just settle this for you and show you what day we're to keep. Now, is there a Scripture? I'll ask this for your benefit.
Is there a Scripture, Brother Branham, telling us and authorizing us to keep Sunday just like the Jews kept Saturday?
No, sir, there's not, not a Scripture in the Bible, for in the New Testament, for us to keep either Saturday or Sunday. But the reason we keep Sunday, is a memorial of the resurrection, Nothing...

Now, you're going to say, "The Roman Catholic did that." They claim they did it, but if they did, Saint Paul was a Roman Catholic, and so was Peter, John, and James, and the rest of them, for they met on the first day of the week for their worship. And according to historians, the only way they could tell between a Christian Jew and an orthodox Jew (They both went to synagogues.), but one went on Saturday which denied the resurrection of Jesus, and the other one went on Sunday which believed that Jesus rose from the dead. And that was a mark. And it'll be; it's a mark yet, and it might come out in being the mark of the beast.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
34-137 Now, I know that the... I've heard Seventh-day Adventist brethren think that that's the seal of God. They said, "You're sealed by keeping the sabbath." There's not a Scripture in the Bible says that.

And here's a Scripture in the Bible that says that--that you're sealed, Ephesians 4:30 says, "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you're sealed unto the day of your redemption," the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Now, I'll prove to you that God's Seal is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. See? That's the baptism of the Spirit is the Seal of God. Now, Isaiah 28 he said, "Precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little."

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
35-140 Now, watch, now, dear friend. Now, the people who quit working... See, men are trying to find something to save hisself. There's not a thing you can do about it. You're saved by grace. God does the calling; God does the saving. You just follow the--the footsteps of God; that's all. You can't say... That's what's the nature of a man is. They try to quit eating meat; they try to keep sabbath days; they try to... "If you'd quit doing this..." It's... You're not saved by not eating meat. You're not saved by this, that, or the other. You're saved by grace. And God by grace gives you the new--Eternal Life. See what I mean? And Eternal Life is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
35-141 Now, let me show you. What does the word "sabbath" mean? Anybody know, would just raise your hand? Sabbath? [A sister says, "Rest."--Ed.] "Rest." Exactly. S-a-b-b-a-t-h, sabbath day, means "r-e-s-t," rest day. Get your marginal reading in the Bible and look, "Rest" day. Now, let's go to Hebrews the 4th chapter, right quick now. And we'll--we're...

This is my last question right here. And brother, see if Brother Neville has got them there. I know a couple of them is short ones, so we won't keep you too much longer. Now, excuse me till I get it.

Now, when you see the word here, "rest," then you know that means "sabbath."

Now, here's the New Testament. Jesus, in St. Matthew He begin at the 5th chapter of St. Matthew, and He begin like this: "You have heard them say, them of old time, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.'" That, what was that? The law, commandments. "But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her..." Changed it, didn't He? "You've heard them say, them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill,' but I say unto you..." Changed it, didn't He? (Thought He didn't change the law?) All right. He said, "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause has killed already." That never was back under the Old Testament; that's New Testament. He just swept it on in yonder beyond that. See? He went ahead and give those commandments out. But He missed; He skipped the fourth one, which is the seventh day. Now, in the 7th chapter, here...

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
36-145 Where in--in the Beatitudes, here's what He said; He said, "You've heard them say, them of old time, 'Thou shalt, thou shalt not,' and I say unto you different. You've heard them say, "A tooth for a tooth, and an eye for an eye, but I say unto you... You heard them say different, but I say unto you."

Now, at the end of it all, He left out the 4th commandment. Now, that was, "Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy." Now, He said, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest unto your soul."

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
36-147 Now, watch, "Whosoever commits adultery must be stoned." They had to be right in the act of committing adultery. Is that right? And it had to be physically done. "Whosoever kills," he had to be a murderer.

But Jesus said, "Whosoever looketh upon a woman," his soul, spirit, nothing in his body now... His soul's redeemed; it wasn't then; it was a schoolmaster (See?), the law was. Now, He said, "Whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery already with her in his heart." Now, He said, "You've heard them say, 'Thou shalt not kill,' but I say, whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause has killed already."

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
36-149 Now, He said, in other words, about the sabbath, He said, "Come to me, all ye that labor and heavy laden, and I will give you rest unto your souls, sabbath unto your souls," not to the physical body, to your soul.

Now, listen--listen at Paul now. If you can just... I know it's hot and everything; it's hot here too. But now, let's get this close now so we'd be sure to settle it. Now, Paul, writing to the Hebrews... Who was the Hebrews? Speak up. The Jews. Is that right? Now, them was the law keepers, the sabbath keepers. Is that right? Is that right, brother, preacher? They were sabbath keepers; they was the law keepers. All right.

Now, Paul is bringing the Jews by shadows and type, showing what the law typed. "The law having a shadow of the good things to come," and he goes ahead and gives it there in one place as the moon and the sun. As the--the--the moon is just a shadow of the sun shining on some other country or some other world, and it's reflecting back here. Now, but now, and it could not... But Hebrews 9...

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
37-152 Now, notice now in Hebrews 4, he comes to the sabbath proposition. Now, look.

Let us therefore fear, lest, the promise being left us to enter into his rest,...
Now, Paul speaking to sabbath keepers now, the people that kept the sabbath day. "Let us fear lest a promise being left us about a sabbath day," in other words. Or if you'll notice your marginal reading, or the "keeping of a sabbath." It's "j" in mine, of the Scofield Bible, or the "keeping of a sabbath." See? All right.

Let us... fear, lest, a promise being left us... to come short of it.

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them... (back under the law):... but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith to them that heard it.

Now, that's back under the law. They didn't have faith, 'cause there's nothing to base it on. See? All right:

For we which have believed to enter into His rest, as he said,...

Now, "His" rest, now, "His," it's Christ's Rest (All right.), His Rest, His sabbath. I'm... Every time I use "rest," is wrote there, I'm going to use the "sabbath" so you'll understand about keeping of a day. See?

For we which have believed to enter into His... (sabbath)... rest, as he said,... I have sworn in my wrath,... (to the Hebrews)... they shall not enter into my rest: although... (Now, watch Paul...?... after God's sanctified day)... although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day for a rest,... (or a sabbath... Is that right? I'm going to lay that there. See?) For he spake in a certain place... (in the law)... of the seventh day on this wise,

And God did rest on the seventh day from all his works.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
37-156 That was His seventh day. Now, Paul would admit that God give it to them; that was the seventh day. And God did rest the seventh day: He blessed the sabbath day; He hallowed it; He sanctified it, and made it a day of rest. God did do it, from all His works.

And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest (Jesus speaking).

Now, there's another sabbath somewhere. Where's it? Now, remember this here, "God's rest," that seventh day. Paul said, "They had that in a certain place." But now again he said, "If they shall enter into My Rest," speaking of Jesus in Matthew, all right.

Seeing that it remains that some must enter in, and to them to whom it was first preached entered not... because of unbelief:

Again...

Now, listen close. Everybody listening, say "Amen." [Congregation says, "Amen!"--Ed.] Listen:

Again, he limited a certain day,...

He limited a day here. What was it? Everybody say it at once. The sabbath. Is that right? He limited the seventh day of the week as a sabbath in this place.

And again, he limited a certain day, saying in David... (in the Psalms)..., To day, after so long a time;... (till Jesus comes, you see, the first time)... it is said,

To day if You... hear his voice, harden not your heart. (There's another rest coming, not a physical, a spiritual.)

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
38-160 Now, watch. So you say, "Then we have the seventh day too." Now, hold it just a minute. Let's read the next verse (See?); don't get it too fast. All right:

For if Jesus had have given them... For if--if Jesus had have given them rest... (rest day),... then would he not afterwards have spoken of another day.

When He changed the law, from the law to the grace, wouldn't He have given them a day to rest, a rest day, a certain day? But He never said nothing about the sabbath. He never said nothing about Sunday; He never said nothing about Saturday. But here's what He did say; Paul said. Now, watch, "There..." The 19th... or the 9th verse:

There remaineth therefore a sabbath to the people of God. (That's today.) There remains... a sabbath to the people of God. For he... (you or I)... who has entered into his rest... (Jesus' Rest, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and heavy laden, I'll give you Rest),... he... (you or I)... has ceased from his own work, as God did from his at the beginning.

Amen! There's your sabbath. Is that right?

Let us labour... (said Paul)... to enter into that rest, lest any man should fall after the same example of unbelief... (of days and so forth. See?).

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even... the dividing asunder of the soul... and a discerner of the... and of... (Let's see.)... of the spirit, and of the... (Just a minute.)... dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, and... the joints and the marrow, and... a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

Neither is there any creature... is not manifested in his sight: for all things are naked and open before His eye of him that whom we have to do.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
39-163 Now, look, God rested the seventh day, created the seventh day, give it to the Jews for a memorial. I'm speaking of Saint Paul now. See? Here... Now, you think he was bringing it? You think he had a right? Now, what'd he say in Galatians 1:8? "If a angel from heaven would come and teach you any other Gospel than that what I have said, let him be unto you accursed." See, the Gospels are plain. Now, watch.

"Well, Brother Branham, now what would I do, just believe Jesus Christ?" No. That's not the Rest.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
39-165 Now, if you want to know what... How many would like to know what the Christian Rest is, say "Amen." [Congregation says, "Amen!" -- Ed.] Now, you can mark it if you want to: Isaiah 28. He said, "Precept must be upon precept--precept," speaking. "Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little, and hold fast to that what's good," the prophet speaking of the time coming about Rest, sabbath. Read the whole chapter (You see?); he's same, "Times there when the sabbath day will be done away," and they'll sell shoes on the Saturday the same as they did it on Monday, or whatevermore. You see? Said, "When will this sign be?" Said:

... precept upon precept;... line upon line; here a little, and there a little: hold fast to that what's good.

For with stammering lips and with other tongues will I speak to this people...

And this is the... (sabbath)... the rest that I said that they should enter into.

And for all of this they hardened their hearts and wagged their heads and rejected It.

Just the same thing they did on Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell upon the people, and the Holy Ghost was first given to the people back there on the day of Pentecost. That is the Rest, the sabbath to the people of God.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
40-166 So the only reason that we keep Sunday, started by our ancient fathers of the Bible, Saint Paul, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and all them; they went from house to house; they taken communion on the first day of the week when the disciples come together; and it was called, not a sabbath, but the Lord's day.

John said on the Isle of Patmos, there had already been a feast of the sabbath in the church, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." That's right. See? And then he saw...

And--and, now, the Lord's day is--is the day that the Lord arose. Now, you go get the historians, Josephus, Actibus [Uncertain spelling--Ed.], many of those other. Or not Actibus, oh, I can't... Any of the eastern writers, and you'll find out back there. The historians of the church, Foxe's "Book of Martyrs," many others, and you'll find out there that the only difference... They are a group of Jews. One of them they called cannibals; that was the Christians. They said, "There was a man that Pontius Pilate killed, and the disciples come and stole His body. And they got it hid, and every--every Sunday they go eat a part of it." They was taking communion. You see? They did... They taken His body. You see? They said they was taking the Lord's body, the communion. And they didn't know what it was, and he said they were cannibals. Said, "They go eat on the first day of the week; they meet together and eat this man's body."

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_ JEFF.IN COD WEDNESDAY_ 53-0729
41-169 And the only way you could tell whether they were law keepers and bitterly denied the resurrection, or whether they was Christians and believed the resurrection, one went to church on Saturday and one went to church on Sunday, which was a mark between them.

That's pretty strong, isn't it? All right. Hope that gets it. The Holy Ghost is...

Now, you got something there, brother? You want... Do you want--do you want to go up and answer it? All right. Let's see, right here. Oh, yes.

God blessed the Seventh Day

God, the Father and His Son Jesus Christ created the world in seven days. they rested on the sabbath, the seventh day and hallowed it. they commanded in the fourth commandment to "remember the sabbath day", knowing that satan would cause men to forget, diminish its value and therefore estrange humanity from the creator and turn themselves to false and forced worship of the antichrist, the counterfeit, baal and mithra worship of roman catholicsm and babylon mystery religions of sun worship - undeserved worship to him, the enemy of souls and of God.
If God be Baal (Satan ) then follow him and be destroyed at the second coming of Christ, and be eternally separated from God, but if God be the only true God, which He is, then follow Him. How long halt ye between two opinions, Love and serve the true Creator and repent of your sins, you will never become immortal following the enemy of souls you will remain a slave to sin and satan even if you dont openly worship him as do the criminals that write these stories gloryifying their depravity and human sacrifices.
Come out of false religion and develop a relationship with Jesus Christ, your Saviour. acts321.org.au.

Reply to Brother Jon in regard to the Sabbath discussion

Brother Jon and other brethren,
Your efforts are commendable and it appears that you are searching for truth, may the Holy Spirit of God lead you into all truth. The Father and the Son are the basis of everything and we cannot get to the Father but through the Son, who died for our sins.

The Son was the manifestation of the Fathers love for our human family. John 3:16. This is what Satan hates the most, this relationship and this truth. Have you noted that the writer of these letters to Arthur Cristian mentions the "overcoming". They must know that Christ overcame the world and it is only through the atonement that we can overcome as well. There is nothing in this world that could ever compare to what everlasting life with The Father and the Son will be. God has shown himself through Jesus, thus when people reject Jesus they reject salvation. However, God is long suffering and strives with hearts of stone, even though man may give up, God loves us more than a mother loves her new born child. He wont force through violence people to accept him, but He does withdraw His Spirit after he judges a person, thus that person is left to "reap what they sow". This explains the strange act that is the judgement of man.

Christ Jesus and the Decalogue is the answer to all of mankind's problems. I believe in the millennium also, however I do not believe that we will be living on this earth after real Jesus returns, see 2 Peter. Also the Sabbath is a literal 24 hour period of time. It is quite clear in Genesis. It is also clear in Isaiah 66 especially verses 22 and 23. Take a look at them. Also the issue of meat and drink that the Apostle Paul speaks of is based upon doctrine not actual food and you find the exact same wording when Paul talks of feeding the disciples with milk and meat, this of course is not literal food but pure doctrine of the gospel of Christ Jesus. The forbidding to marry part is the celibacy of the priesthood and fits in perfectly with other descriptions of the mother of harlots church as do the other prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Please be careful when people claim to be prophets they need to pass Biblical test. So excepting personal circumstances the only one that fits the Ladocean period is E G White. There is a book called The Prophet of the End, it is worth reading. Please get a copy of the Great Controversy by E G White that explains a lot.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, kept the ten commandments including the Sabbath as an example to his disciples and reinstitutes the Sabbath in the earth made new. The ordinances that were given to the disciples were foot-washing and the last supper. The Apostle Paul, as his custom was kept the Sabbath. The early Christian Church that flourished through the evangelism of the 12 Apostles spread as a Sabbath keeping church. Sunday was instituted by the Catholic Church, previously the Roman Church. They admit this openly as evidence of their "supposed superiority/authority" to Christ Jesus and God Himself since they believe He got things wrong and they thought that as mere men they should improve upon His laws, which are a statement of His Holy Character and Government.

The facts are that they they have changed times and laws, by rewriting the commandments. Some of their leaders have also murdered millions of innocent men and women as heretics because they refused to deny Jesus Christ and the truth. Do not get me wrong I am not against any person, rather a counterfeit system. There are many beautiful Christian people in the Catholic Churches and before the plagues fall God will call them out of spiritual Babylon through the straight testimony of the three angels messages. For further information about the three angels messages see E G White or acts321.org.au or restoration ministries. They are preaching the straight testimony as are the other evangelists that have been mentioned.

Beware of the websites calling Eg White a false prophet and using her writings by disgruntled ex SDA's they are full of misquotes and out of context quotes and are manipulated in such a way that they use her so as to appear to contradict herself. When you actually get the books that they source the quotes from and read the quotes they use you get really quite incensed by their deliberate attempts to mislead the people and turn SDA's to disbelieve her and her revelations from God. They are behaving like the brethren that Paul spoke of knew the truth and then turned away others from Christ becoming His enemies. They will have to account for their false testimony in the judgement and I pray that they repent of this.

May the love of the Father and His Son be with you all and may you find the fellowship of his saints and be perfected in all truth, God bless you, Jesus is with us always through the Holy Spirit, praise the Almighty God you are an answer to prayer!

Re: Reply to Brother Jon in regard to the Sabbath discussion

What the **** is going on here? More morons coming out of the blogosphere urging people down the wrong path. REJECT JESUS NOW!!!! It will soon be too late. Jesus (or rather, Hey-Zeus) represents all that is ignorant, destructive and evil. Your constant praying to this vileness is bringing all the woes and ills upon this fair planet - our true Mother. Be off, you pack of dumbarse idiots! Go away and leave good, sane people alone.

'Your Constant Praying To This Vileness Lucifer’s United Nations

'Your constant praying to this vileness is bringing all the woes and ills upon this fair planet - our true Mother.' You sound like your friends at the UN; Whose publishing company the 'Lucis (Lucifer) trust' promote worshipping 'mother earth' originated by those hateful witches Alice bailey and Madame Blavatsky. Lucifer’s United Nations

re: SUNDAY Is The "Venerable Day Of The Sun" Hence The Word SUNd

You are a moron. Everyone with a brain that is functional knows that there was a time when the Earth was coupled with Saturn and that Saturn was the "sun" to the Earth. This primary "solar system" originated near Orion. The Sun that is there now is a projection of Sirius A. Of course the Sun and Saturn are two completely different astral bodies in the solar system. Anybody can see that with their naked eyes, so why did you need to make that point? You have to explain why Saturn was considered the primary "sun" and was worshipped as the "creator deity" of the Earth. Why don't you ask Arrabito and Rivera to explain those facts away, you ignoramous.

Sabbath Is Not Saturday It's Friday Evening Until Saturday Eveni

Sabbath is not Saturday. It is Friday evening until Saturday evening, as in Creation-Genesis.

The Israelite's keep this time period in honour of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Sunday is kept in honour of the Sun, the creator or life giver, then was adopted to be in honour of Christ (dias dominii) lord's day. Jesus said that he was Lord of the Sabbath.

Sabbath and Saturday are two, different periods of time. Did you realise that before posting your narrow minded hogwash?

All pagan religions are based on SUN worship, not Saturn worship. Since the sun could be seen in the sky, they followed the patterns of the sun and attributed this movement to their god's birth, life and death. Once again, returning to the Babylonian trinity.

The worship of the serpent (winged bird) as well as astrology, the movements of the stars was the basis of their religions and cults.

These are abominations before the Creator, so how could this worship of the sun, Saturn etc be acceptable to Him? The worship of the "creature" rather than the creator has always been condemned in the Bible as idolatry.

All pagan religions commenced in Babylon, by Cush, then the trinity of Nimrod, Tammuz, Semiramis. The trinity is the worship of all three, and has been interposed in Christianity so you are incorrect when allude that Saturn was worshipped alone as the creator deity. They are worshipped in 3.

You need to learn how to spell.

SABBATH Isn't SATURDAY It's Friday Sunset To Saturday Sunset

Dear writer of the above comments, seriously. you need to learn some manners, and learn to spell correctly i.e ignoramous?

SABBATH isn't SATURDAY, its Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

The "times and laws" have been changed. The seventh day is evening until evening.

It's observance is what God requires of men when he issued the 4th commandment.

If you want to argue with God and scripture by all means go ahead, like Joshua said, as for me and my household, I will follow the Lord.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned by FAITH. God will reveal the truth to you if your heart is not prejudiced by your preconceived ideas. God gave his truth to the "babes" and hid it from the prudent and the wise.

All false religion originated in Babylon, through the rebellion of Nimrod, Semiramus and Tammuz AGAINST GOD.

Each successive civilization adapted the pagan trinity to their worship of the sun,stars and moon.

The stars were considered the planets or astral bodies of the solar system.

By the way can you see Saturn from earth? Did the ancient peoples have powerful telescopes to see the solar system as we have today?

Do you think that perhaps the worship of Saturn was interposed by the worship of the sun and that the sun was/is the planet of worship of many ancient pagan religions?

The ancient Egyptians track the movement of the sun across the sky from sunrise, midday and sunset. The sun remains the central astral body of most religions today.

You need to read The two Babylons by Rev Alexander Hyslop, it is an excellent book.

God bless.

reply to: SABBATH Isn't SATURDAY It's Friday Sunset To Saturday

Of course you can see Saturn with the naked eye, moron. The seven days of the week are named after the seven bodies of our current Solar System that can be seen with the naked eye - Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn. There was a time when there was no Moon and no Sun - only Saturn was visible as it hovered over the North Pole 24/7. Now it can only be seen at night, hence the reasons that you gave for the Sabbath. You need to get your heads out of those Fundy shite books and study real mythology. Also there are many supposed ancient "primitive" peoples on this planet who know about cosmic objects that we are only recently discovering. I don't know if they had telescopes or not, but I'll take your word for it that they didn't. So maybe they know about them because the Earth was once very close to them and they were visible to the naked eye. The Sun is indeed the central astral body of most religions today - but that has not always been so. It was once Saturn - and in every culture on this planet. Explain that one, doofus.

reply to: SABBATH Isn't SATURDAY It's Friday Sunset To Saturday

What connection are you trying to make between JW'S and SDA'S?

If Saturn is seen and worshipped only at night then how come the Sabbath services are run during the day? Most Adventists sleep at the same time as other people do, they aren't outside in the woods in the middle of the night performing rituals to Saturn.

The Hebrews, ancient Isrealites were given the command from the Creator to keep the Sabbath in honour of Him as a memeorial of creation. The Hebrews kept the days of the week numbered from 1-7 the seventh day being the Sabbath.

You mention that Saturn could be seen hovering above the North Pole 24/7 as there was no Sun and Moon. So there was life on Earth and living beings with eyes, but no light, photosynthesis nor oxygen or atmosphere or movement of waters to support that life. Truly weird science!!!
If this is what your buying and reading instead of the Holy Bible -"fundy shite books" - I would be asking for a refund!

Ancient peoples were primitive in the lack of regard for human suffering. They were worshipping the sun and following the cycles of the moon and stars, through the seasons, but the sun was at the centre of their pagan altars, temples and ceremonies where they offered human sacrifices and did their abominations in order to appease the Sun God, the most powerful.That is why they were destroyed by the One True God.

All religions of today have adopted paganism into their rites and traditions, with the exception of the remnant that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You haven't answered regarding the triad/trinity connection.

In what time period and in what culture was Saturn worshipped as the Sun and when was the change to the Sun made and why?

Please refrain from name calling that appears as assenine , immature behaviour.

God bless

Speculations merit none

I know i got to this blog late but maybe one of you speculators will happen back across this comment. The simple truth was, is, and will always be that there is a creator. The infinitive universe cannot be understood by any man. We simply cannot fathom everything that was and still is today. We can guess at or follow evidence to our own conclusions individually, but will never come to an exact model of how creation began or will end. Our life begins and ends. God's does not. Try a different perspective. Say that it is all true: On the first day God created the light....and so on and so forth. Even with an opposed belief system, imagine what god was doing before that.

Now if nothing had been created as of yet, what was?

Now away from speculation, the same rule applies. We cannot say for sure whether Saturn was the original "sun", because there are no records of that time. Though, I encourage you to look at hints around you, speculation leads to the thing you are condemning through your "facts". Religion. I choose no religion, but the one i feel and know through my personal relationship with God. I am a christian, but in no way christ-like. I strive to be, but will always fall short; because I am simply a man. The same way of all your speculation falls short, because it is simply speculation.

The aformentioned hints such as: The "coincidence" that almost all pre-christian religions viewed saturn as their supreme god. Another being that some of the oldest of these religion's practices have survived millennia hidden from the general public, to be reproduced by those in power today, just as it was in ancient Mesopatamia(see cremation of care). The bible's prophecies in Revelation and Isiah are chillingly fulfilled through America, Europe, and the Middle east of the our time(see escapeallthesethings). The parenthesised keywords should be put into google for best results. Though you could just read the Bible, the vedas, and the hermetic texts. See for yourself the parallel religions do not cancel out one another, but corroborate the underlying story to all these subjects you speculate on. Please read the Bible, look around you, and connect the dots.

p.s. im not fully sure the story of the annunaki to be fact or fiction. You said that it has been around for thousands of years, but remember the slabs that the story is recorded on is the only acccount we have of this. And those slabs were "discovered" in very recent years in comparison to the millennia they have "been around".

"Take heed let no man decieve you"

Re: Speculations merit none

This is probably impossible for you, DM - but let's try and keep this thread sensible:

Quote: "The simple truth was, is, and will always be that there is a creator."

PROVE IT! Truth is ALWAYS provable - the Creatress hides nothing. If it is hidden, obscure, requires third-party priests/ministers/bishops/popes then it is the anti-Christ.

Reply to the anonymous Creatress believer

Do you mind enlightening our readers on a couple of things?

1. Where is your eyewitness record or proof that the Creatress actually exists and that she has created all things?

2. How can popes/bishops/ministers/etc be anti Christ, when according to your presented research Jesus doesn't even exist? So how can you even use this concept of Antichrist to define your arguments?

3. Are you aware of the Counter Reformation?

4. Do you always feel the need to control others? Does this sense of supposed power you have over others dominate you?

By the way, there were 7 thousand men in Israel that hadn't bowed down to Baal, and were spared along with Elijah. Elijah won the battle against the priests of Baal.

Sorry mate, BUT your whole arguments appear to be warped.

reply to: SABBATH Isn't SATURDAY It's Friday Sunset To Saturday

OK moron, I'll refrain from calling you doofus.....the triad/trinity is Moon-Sun-Saturn or Isis-Ra-El (Israel) or Queen-King-Jack in a deck of cards.

Christianity arose out of the Cult of Sol Invictus - the Cult of the unconquered Sun. The Conquered Sun was Saturn or in Greek mythology Kronos. Kronos was the ruler of the ancient race of Gods called the Titans. Kronos was defeated and deposed by his Son Zeus/Jupiter. Zeus is Je Zeus (pronounced "hey zoos" in all Latin Languages) which means "I Am Zeus" - the letter 'J' is a recent addition to the English language, and has replaced the letters 'I' and 'H' so we render "I Am Zeus" as Jesus.

Saturn was the sun, moron....it provided all the heat and light necessary for life. It was considered the creator of all life on this planet as well as the creator of the planet itself. That is why Saturn's Day - the Sabbath - is the holiest of days. All ancient people knew and understood this.

Ancient people were not nearly as primitive as you imagine, you arrogant hypocrite. What makes you think that you are so god-dammed intelligent and insightful? Because you have Jesus? You don't even know that you are worshipping Zeus - which is to be dammed and confounded. And you think that you are at the pinnacle of human understanding of cosmic creation - give me a break! You are an example of what happens when humanity devolves. Also, Jehovah is EL in the Old Testament. It only references Him as such about 3,500 times. El is Saturn - look it up. And Jehovah is "hey Hovah" - get out your Strong's Bible Concordance and look up the meaning of Hovah, if you have the balls. It means "calamity, ruin, chaos, naughty penis, mischief, and so on". You Christians are so dumb calling all this shite and misery down upon the Earth every weekend - no wonder the world is such a mess.

Cause & Effect? The Hegelian Dialectic Problem Reaction Solution

Cause and effect? The Hegelian Dialectic, problem, reaction, solution? People are allowed to think for themselves and express themselves freely. there is also a duty of care towards one another that has been dissolved by political correctness, you appear to say derogatory comments about Christians they are free to practice their faith, full stop.

Reply to Cause & Effect? The Hegelian Dialectic Problem Reaction

Anony.....you dumbarse moron.....I don't just appear to say derogatory things about Christians - I AM SAYING DEROGATORY THINGS ABOUT CHRISTIANS!! Of course you are allowed to think for yourself...so, when are you going to do it, shite-for-brains? Your demon-deity Je-Zeus the vile, disgusting destroyer of souls will not help you do it - do it on your own, Mr. full stop. You are an idiot.

Any Person Can Put Their Trust In God Because He Is Faithful.

Any person can put their trust in God because He is faithful. King of Kings is going to return in the clouds at the end of this world and the fact that you exist " scoffers in the last days" is just one more proof that Jesus Christ was and always is the way the truth and the light. Pray for Jesus to renew in you a clean heart, to ask for forgiveness of sins and repent and you will be saved and have peace in your heart. Jesus loves you and died for you, remember that next time you begin writing insults about the God you will owe your salvation to.

Re: Any Person Can Put Their Trust In God Because He Is Faithful

You pagan false idol demon God worshipping lunatic - we are not in "the last days". The world will go on for eons and morons like you, who lie and believe in lies, will have their souls harvested by the parasites that you choose to follow. Je-Zeus is no more real than the Tooth Fairy - but if he was, he can go suck his own dick like the Dog that he is. What makes you think for even one minute that you are worthy of the "gift" of salvation? Wake up and worship your Mother, fool. She is not going to tolerate your delusional idiocy for much longer. She wants Her children to come into the light - but you have to save yourself.

Reply to Anonybous

What abominable things to say against the only begotten Son of God, you should be ashamed of yourself, you can keep your falsehoods but have some dignity and self respect when you share them. Without God life has no meaning, purpose. Without Christ mankind would have been lost forever. The goodness of man is turned into corruption without the Holy Spirit abiding in the heart. There is no more purpose in future discussions because you are as Balaam was, perhaps worse, God only knows.

God forgive you for your hateful words against Him, the Majesty of Heaven, the Living God that sustains the Universe, for you do not know what you say or do when you insult and mock Him.The real Jesus is not Tammuz and you know this. There are two gospels and two Christs. Take some of your precious time and actually read the New Testament Epistles of Paul before you go on some vengeful Satanic crusade against His people. Jesus withstood the agony of Gethsemane and the cross and thats how you thank Him? He took the sins of all humanity upon Him and this is your gratitude? He lived a selfless life thinking and living only to heal and help others and you call him a demon idol!What arrogance and ingratitude! Salvation belongs to those who accept Christ and keep His commandments, whether by their conscience or by the decalogue.

It is not for you to decide whether a person is saved or not, it should be your business to heed God's warning messages in His word and to repent, which is what all men must do to accept the offer of salvation. The choice is yours.

Reply to Anony

It's simple - give one piece of solid evidence that the object of your delusion (aka Je-Zeus) actually existed, you moronic demon-worshipper. I'll shut up if you do. But you can't, and you know it - which makes you a petty lying henchman of Ba'al sucking on the haemorrhoid sticking out of his anus. It is time for you to apologise to your Mother and repent that you have chosen to suck a cock rather than a teat, which is what all men must do to accept the offer of salvation. The choice is yours.

Re: Reply to Anony

Why dont you take a look at the Bible and then take a look at archeology/history and the world around us and lets just say for arguments sake, non christian religions and there concepts and lets see which is as obsessed on sex and the perversions you describe:

1. The Ten Commandments and the entire Torah. Stating that a married relationship is the only relationship that allows for the union of one husband and wife and sexual relations.

2. The ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, who was born of a virgin and died upholding the Torah priesthood and laws, being the perfection of human nature and character and moral purity. Who judged not the adulterer, nor the sins of the people, healing them and reconciling them to the Father and Only True God. His life is a testament to the capacity of man to live as he taught. Forgiving people of their sins and teaching them that they needed to live with a renewed heart and mind. His bride is the church, so He too upholds what God teaches in the word of God. Thus He and He alone could only be the true Christ.

3. The qualities of the people who wish to qualify for eternal life as described in the Epistles of Paul, the Books of 2Peter, Timothy and lets not forget St John. 1,2,3.Describing that the Apostles were once fornicators and adulterers and sinful people but were transformed by the Holy Word of God into his disciples.

4. That true love is the love of the Father and the Son. Agape love, represented as love and service and self sacrifice to our fellow man, philadelphia, hence why Christians are called brothers and sisters, They are as God's children now, in His family, Sons and daughters by adoption a part of the spiritual body of Christ, spiritual Isreal made up of all nations, tribes abd people's and languages.
VERSUS

1. The Kama Sutra, a book likened to modern day pornogaphy filled with all kinds of sexual acts that are channelling worship to pagan gods and goddesses.

2. The worship of the Phallus as testified by the ancient temples of Luxor in Egypt. Take a good look at the inscriptions of the pagan sex cults bordering the top of the walls around this temple.

3. The sex cults of Ancient Rome and Greece. Where orgies were held in broad daylight and young women and men were forced from their families to worship these false gods and perform vile acts to those perverse enough to debase themselves and exploit other people's children, wives, brothers and sisters etc.

4. Semiramus marrying her son Tammuz, commiting peodophilia and lying about him saying that he was Nimrod reincarnated.

So once again, where do you get your anti christian information from?

The problem is that Christianity is being attacked in Western Countries by all these so called enlightened religions that sell their own children for prostitution money. God is completely against the exploitation of children and Jesus was the greatest human rights advocate that ever lived. The meaning of religion is to care for those who are widows, meaning the elderly ones and the fatherless. Whoever proclaims that they are Christ's followers and engage in sexually abusing children is a false representative and abomination to God.

You really need to read the Bible and ask God to reveal the truth. Why should you continue to believe these lies and make all of these shocking statements against Jesus. Read God's words for yourself in his Holy Word the Bible and see that you will be humbled and in awe of the Majesty of this Great and Wonderful Father of Lights and all of Creation. There is no cosmic mother, there is only Satan, and his androgynous duality who is transforming himself into an angel of light , then the prince of darkness and also trying to claim Mary's title as the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven and people flock to this charismatic movements not heeding Christ's words not to worship idols.The only way to the Father is through the Son. Mary was the greatest mother that lived for she bore Jesus and taught him the Mosiac Laws and understood and supported his ministry and his purpose on earth. Eve is the mother of all living and although she sinned she will be pardoned through the blood of the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of this world. Semiramis is the queen of heaven that Israel apostasised and began to worship baking cakes to in the old testament.She is known by many various names in a lot of religions but it is the same concept. This apostasy of the peculiar people that God chose to be his light to the spiritually dark pagan world was an abomination to him and still is.

What more is there to say, what proof are you seeking, what can be given you that you would honestly accept? Jesus will show you that he is real if you sincerely ask him too. Just the fact that you live on this remarkably beautiful earth is proof enough. Nature is proof, creation is proof, the human body is proof. The most gifted and intellectual human beings that ever lived believed in the God of the Bible and that is as a grain of sand on the sea shore. Humble your heart to Jesus, the one you consider your enemy and be transformed by the renewing of your mind. In Christian love, God's peace and bless you on your journey in this life.

Reply to Anony

I am an historian, you dimwit. Where is the proof in anything that you wrote? I've asked God to reveal the truth - but he hasn't. Maybe you could ask him for me? Apparently you are able to talk directly to him. But are you sure that "him" is really God? He could be deceiving you - after all, the great Balthazaar is the arch deceiver. Maybe you could bring "him" to my house? I'll salt all the window sills and doorstops, hang the garlic and get some silver bullets just in case.

Come on...what's the big deal? You claim that Jesus will show me if I am sincere - you are sincere...he'll obviously do it if you ask, won't he? What proof has he shown you?

On the topic of sex and orgies, what about all those paedophile priests? Christianity is the BIGGEST sexual abuser of children on the planet!!!!

You need to humble your heart, you deluded, arrogant, pustule on the bum of Beelzebub. Renew your own feeble mind. The sooner that you are off this planet the better for we humans. Stupid, delusional dumbf**ks like you are the real enemy because you are one of the droids keeping this inhuman, cruel machine of destruction going. It is f**kwits like you that are holding humanity back in the fight against the psychopathic corporate monstrosity that is raping and pillaging this planet.

May the blessed Mother forgive your sorry arse - and kick it to Jupiter (Zeus) where you belong. People like you and your damned and confounded Je-Zeus are the real abominations. Take your "Christian" love and shove it up your penis-seeking anus. Then go and explain to all those abused children how "Christian" love is good for them, you stinking hypocrite. The Mother takes a very dim view of those that abuse Her children - she will crush and extinguish your soul if you keep it up (or in any way whatsoever help someone who does - has any of your money fallen into the hands of a deviant?) You are going to be very, very sorry.

Saturn

If you are Dave Talbott you're more of a hardass than i thought!

Anyway, its good to see someone else is interested in this stuff.

I thought the 3 part god was Saturn as Ra, venus as Isis and mars as horus. where did you get the info that the Saturn system originated in Orion? what is the significance of Sirius? how old do you think the earth is? can you recommend any research materials beyond Cardona's works? any info as to when Cardona's next installment is due? is there a source for a possible timeline from Saturn's creation of the earth through the golden age and the catastrophes etc?

thanks

Reply to Saturn

As above, so below. A Solar System is is a "body" similar to yours. The Earth is countless billions of years old and was once the base chakra of the Saturnian body. There was a war between the 3rd dimension of Orion and the 3rd dimension of Sirius, which resulted in Orion being defeated. To save some of the "souls" of Orion, its brightest star was shifted here and the "body" dismembered. Jupiter was a major player in this happening - Jupiter (Zeus) overthrew Saturn (Cronus) in classical mythology. The original "indigenous" inhabitants of the Earth are from Orion. They were all heavily melanated. Later came melanated people from the Illysian Fields of Sirius - they created the empires of Atlantis and Lemuria probably 50,000+ years ago. Later still came souls with much Karmic baggage from the Pleiades - probably no more than 6,000 years ago. They are the white people created in the Garden of Eden in what is now the Amazon. After the destruction of these empires (which were matriarchal), the white people gained control of the planet. They were probably helped by the "reptilians" that arrived from Andromeda. This ancient knowledge is kept by the secret societies such as Fremasonry and has been corrupted and used to keep the vast bulk of humanity in servitude.

The Earth was once much smaller and gravity was much less - so everything on Earth was much bigger. It had mega-Fauna and mega-Flora. There were giants on Earth in those days. It was the Golden Age. But, as the earth is growing (expanding), gravity is increasing and the "physicality" of everything is getting greater - this is resulting in the reduction of consciousness that is all around us. Check this site out: http://eearthk.com/Readings.html

The Earth has undergone several catastrophes. I do not know when Cardona's next book is coming out. Most of this information comes from the Moorish Science Temple in the US. The Sun is very young compared to all the planets.

Reply to Moorish Science

Were you an eyewitness to any of these events?

Where is the eyewitness testimony that you get your information from?

Can anything about what you say be proven by the laws of nature and science?

"Is this system based on astrology?

Where is the relevance to any of this to solving mans problems?

Where is the basis for governing human life and the universe?

Who is the intelligence behind the designs?

Where is the proof that the bible is wrong and what you believe right?

Why are christian believers wrong and what you believe right? Or do you speak to aliens personally?

Where is the proof that God doesn't exist, have you seen him?

Did you know that the Islamic religion, according to eyewitness testimony and its teachings is one of the biggest abuser of human rights on earth?

Where is your incontrovertible proof that Jesus is not real nor was resurrected from the dead?

Were you also studying sociology as well as history?

What part of history did you miss?

Where is the proof that God doesn't exist, have you seen him?

Of course I haven't seen him, you moron! If I had, then he would exist. Why ask that stupid question?

"Can anything about what you say be proven by the laws of nature and science?" There is mountains of scientific evidence - just start researching.

YOU CAN'T SOLVE ANY OF MAN'S PROBLEMS UNTIL YOU HAVE CORRECT KNOWLEDGE. You cannot understand the present until you know the past. They have taken away all our power by feeding us crap about our time and place in the universe.

The true spirituality of western mankind was once one system that incorporated Astrology, Numerology, Tarot and Kabbalah. It was replaced by the cartoonish Bible, Koran and Torah.

I don't speak to aliens - but I do know that Christians are a pox, a herpes and a pestulant plague upon this Earth. The turds that come out of my arse each day have more intelligence and are far more useful than any Christian can ever be.

Are you claiming that the Islamic religion has abused more people than Christianity has over the centuries? Didn't you go to school? Take your idiocy somewhere else, you supporter of paedophilia.

Response To Anonybous

There are people who have seen God and spoken to him and his angels and witnessed his Son's life, death and resurrection. They have recorded their eyewitness testimony in the Bible.

Once again, where is your eyewitness testimony and incontrovertible proof that God does not exist and the createress is really god and you have seen her, spoken to her and know her life story from eyewitness accounts.

If you can prove that God doesn't exist then you have a point. If you cannot prove that he does not exist then you should heed the saying "silence is golden".

Otherwise, to use your logic is just as useful as a "turd in a toilet bowl."

I will never say another nasty word about Christians if....

You claim that there were people that witnessed the resurrection. You and all Christians should agree that without the resurrection there is no basis for your faith. Paul wrote (1 Corinthians 15:14-15): “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.”

Well, I will never say another nasty word about Christians if you tell me, exactly, what happened on Easter Sunday. I am not asking for proof - simply everything that the Bible says happened. The relevant parts in the Bible are: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21, Acts 1:3-12 and Paul’s version in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Since the gospels don’t always give precise times of day, please make educated guesses. But, the account must be plausible, without the omission of a single detail from each of the separate Biblical verses, in chronological order. Simply tell me what happened first, second and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.

Questions that I would like answered are:
What time did the women visit the tomb?
Who were the women?
What was their purpose?
Was the tomb opened when they arrived?
Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Where were these messengers situated?
What did the messengers say?
Did the women tell what happened?
When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know that Jesus had been resurrected?
When did Mary first see Jesus?
Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
After the women, to whom did Jesus appear?
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Did the disciples believe the two men?
What happened at the appearance?
Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Where did the ascension take place?
Was there a great earthquake?
If there was, why did only one person notice? This person also noticed that, at the crucifixion, dead people emerged from the graves of Jerusalem and walked around showing themselves to everyone. This is an amazing event, even for those magical days, but it has escaped the notice of all the other gospel writers and all other historians of the period as well.

This request might appear to be pedantic, but I am not the one claiming to have a personal relationship with a supernatural being from another dimension. I’m not the one claiming that the earth was created in six days; that women come from a man’s rib; that a snake, a donkey, and a burning bush all spoke human language; that the entire world was flooded, covering the mountains, simply to drown some evil people; that all animal species, millions of them, rode on one boat; that language variations stem from the tower of Babel; that Moses had a magic wand; that the Nile turned to blood; that a stick turned into a snake; that witches, wizards and sorcerers really exist; that food rained from the sky for forty years; that people were cured by the sight of a brass serpent; that the sun stood still to help Joshua win a battle, and it went backward for King Hezekiah; that men survived unaided in a fiery furnace; that a detached hand floated in the air and wrote on a wall; that men followed a star which directed them to a particular house; that Jesus walked on water unaided; that fish and bread magically multiplied to feed the hungry; that water instantly turned into wine; that mental illness is caused by demons; that a ‘devil’ with wings actually exists who causes all the evil in the world; that people were healed by stepping into a pool agitated by angels; that disembodied voices spoke from the sky; that Jesus vanished and later materialized from thin air; that people were healed by Peter’s shadow; that angels broke people out of jail; that a fiery lake of eternal torment awaits unbelievers under the earth … while there is life-after-death in a city which is 1,500 cubic miles, with mansions and food, for Christians only!

Surely outrageous claims like these require some proof? These stories (myths?) violate natural law, contradict science and fail to correspond with reality or logic. If you can’t see that, then you can’t separate truth from fantasy. Maybe you have a ‘spiritual sense’ that most people lack? That is really saying that God exists, but you need a special sense to see Him. You may as well claim that the only people who are qualified to make a judgment about the existence of Santa Claus are those who have personally met Santa Claus. What if I were to insist that I have had ‘experiences’ which prove that your ‘experience’ is a psychological delusion? Would you take my word for it? I gather that you believe that your true citizenship is in heaven and that this world is merely a stepping stone to getting there. That makes you an extraterrestrial! My ‘experience’ tells me that I am an earthling – an intelligent human being – a citizen of this universe. I am not inherently evil, I possess the positive, rational potential to help make this a place of morality and joy, and I do not need to derive meaning and purpose from some other ‘supernatural’ mind. That cannot be said for you soulless droids that believe such obvious drivel...but, here is your chance to shut me up for good. Go for it - waste some of your precious time, you morons. I'll be waiting.

I will never say another nasty word about Christians if....

It has been 10 days, and not a single reply from any Christian.

You gutless bunch of weak-liverd terds. At least have a go, you cowards!!!!!

You jump over every statement that doesn't agree with your narrow view of reality, but when a serious challenge to your own distorted view arises, you go all silent.

Come on!!!!!!!!!

Someone take up the challenge!!!!!!

You can't, can you, you servants of Satan!

You are all liars and hypocrites!!!

Answer my questions or never post here again. You are all consigned to hell, anyway.

That shut you up, didn't it!!!!!!

Everybody, please take notice.

REPLY TO MR AND MRS ANONYBOUS

How original. Some people have a lot of idle time to spare at taxpayers expense and very little patience, why the fear and the hurry? you know everything already dont you anonybous and co? why do you need to scream and carry on for an explanation? you are all right or so you all think because you have set a trap as the pharisees did to Christ. The trap they set is for themselves as little do the blind guides recognise that they lead the blind and both will fall in. Every question you wrote verifies the truth of the resurrection of Christ and the fact that the pharisees knew he was crucified but invented and bribed the Romans and false witnesses suggests they had something to hide about the reality of the only begotten Son of God. do you need more proof of the resurrection? read desire of ages by eg white a true prophet. every beat of your heart and breath of your mouth that curses God was ordained by him.as He says, By their words they are justified and by their words they are condemned. what the cost of freedom and living in a free country, some will never comprehend. people lose their lives for the words " Jesus Christ my Lord has arisen " everyday and you take it for granted, repugnant fool/s.

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Do the Resurrection accounts HOPELESSLY contradict one another?

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Accordingly, I want to approach this in four points:

The absolute necessity of conjecture in historical reconstructions;

The significance of different details in the accounts (from the standpoint of evidence)

The legitimacy of harmonization attempts relative to historical material;

The issue of "plausibility" of explanations.

Several specific reconstructions/sequencing of the post-resurrection events (or appearances of Christ)
The absolute necessity of conjecture in historical reconstructions

Anybody that has "done" any history knows that the "just the facts" position above is simply absurd. History is reconstructive in its concrete practicality. To show this, it is sufficient to simply cite passages from standard works/textbooks on historical method.

"Science deals with concrete things that can be touched, weighed, measured, and evaluated under laboratory conditions. Science deals with concrete, verifiable objects. History, on the other hand, does not deal with materials that can be touched, weighed, and measured. History is inferential i.e., it infers the past on the basis of partially known facts. True, the historian makes use of some concrete materials in his work, such as documents, diaries, newspapers, and contemporary accounts in his investigations, but from these he must infer the past. He cannot weigh or measure these materials as the scientist can weigh or measure his materials." [History: Meaning and Method, by Donald V. Gawronski, Scott Foresman:1969 (rev. ed), p. 4.]

"Characteristically historical explanations can be described in the first instance as such explanations of the deeds of men (individuals, groups, nations, etc.) as conform to the logical pattern and evidential conditions which define characteristically genetic explanations. As with characteristically genetic, so with characteristically historical explanations: there are some in which the antecedent is among the facts already known to or accepted by the historian, and others in which it has to be inferred. Cases of the latter sort are no doubt more characteristic of history, since they include the great majority of those in which the emphasized necessary antecedent is a motive or a belief or a decision or a communication received or a principle or policy or precept adhered to by some agent; and certainly such explanations involve important features and difficulties of their own. But for the purpose of establishing and articulating the general function of characteristically historical explanations, it will be best to concentrate at the outset upon cases of the former sort, i.e. those in which the emphasized antecedent necessary condition is a fact already known.." [W. B. Galle, "Explanations in History and the Genetic Sciences" in Patrick Gardiner, ed., Theories of History, The Free Press: 1959; p. 395]

"Inference is the process of reasoning from facts that are not entirely connected. It is used to fill gaps in the record or to supply connections between bits or classes of evidence. To call it 'informed invention' is possibly overly-pessimistic. At any rate, it should be done tentatively, provisionally, even modestly. Although this type of reasoning or interpretation is as chancy as the assignment of causes, in most investigations it must be used. Remember, that all inferences are probabilistic. An inference may even be thought of as an hypothesis; that is, a suggestion as to relationships between facts.

The process is to some extent intuitive, undemonstrable, partially free of fact; but it should cling to whatever facts are available. It is not mechanical, but a creative process. It is not, however, inventive in the sense that fiction is contrived. The historian may not move the first voyage of Columbus to 1516 to suit his whim."
[A Guide to Historical Method, Edited by Robert Jones Shafer, Dorsey Press: 1974 (rev. ed.); pp. 182-183.]

This demonstrates the widespread use of inference in historical inquiry. Now let's look at how inference actually works in historical reconstructions.
The following somewhat generalized model of inquiry illuminates some substantive methodological, issues in history. John Dewey first formulated this model, but Karl Popper has subsequently, with slightly altered and more formal emphasis, adopted and refined it. By it, one should be able to say that a historian, confronted with, and in some way baffled or disturbed by, disparate phenomena that seem to give evidence for some human past, begins to construct imaginary accounts or narratives, perhaps including within them several causal judgments, in an attempt to unify and make some sense out of all the confusing phenomena; that he constantly checks each invented story against a residue of acquired knowledge (vicarious verification) as well as against the focal phenomena, that he keeps up this game until he finds a story consistent with what he already knows, and which gives some pattern to his phenomena (or most of them); that his narrative also almost inevitably implicates other, as yet unexperienced phenomena; that he then, either directly or by inferential, deductive chaining (desired phenomenon A necessitates B, and B necessitates C, which if found will have the same evidential significance as A) seeks out the specifically indicated evidence, knowing always that one unpredicted and noncoherent phenomenon will falsify his story; that he keeps restructuring his story until, finally, with the most diligent search of all evidence then available, he has so integrated the original phenomena and the induced phenomena as to have a quite unified, plausible, and supported account (as well as, we hope, an eloquent and dramatic story), although he knows that falsifying evidence could turn up at any time and that, most often, his story is most tentative because of the many probable inferences that had to go into it....How does this model fit historical practice? Perhaps better than the working historian thinks. [The Heritage and Challenge of History, Paul K. Conkin and Roland N. Stromberg, Dodd, Mead, & Co.: 1971; pp. 214-215)

The "Net": What this means for us is simple: we are SUPPOSED to come up with 'glue' explanations, plausible conjectures, and hypothetical 'narratives'--to weave the historical facts into a comprehensible whole. It is simply historical method that dictates that we will try to integrate (via interconnections and "induced" facts) the various historical data we have. It is not 'special pleading' or 'speculation'--anymore that constructing a history of Tiberius from the disparate and wildly divergent sources of Tacitus, Suetonius, Velleius Paterculus, and Dio Cassius would be. History is composed of inferential thinking and hypotheses.

The significance of different details in the accounts (from the standpoint of evidence)

No one disputes that the surface structure of the Easter narratives contains a large number of differences in details. The narratives themselves are not complete, of course, since each author selected only the details relevant to his literary purpose; so we would expect SOME LEVEL of complementary information (which is sometimes interpreted as 'contradiction'!), but the amount of these surface differences has historically been quite a discomfort to the casual reader or beginning student.

In actual fact, however, these differences serve both to (1) 'tip us off' to the author's intended purpose (e.g. what facts from a shared body of information did the author SELECT to include)--VERY important to exegesis; and to (2) lend additional weight to the credibility of the accounts! While it might seem odd to a reader to say that the apparent discrepancies between the narratives ENHANCES THE CREDIBILITY of those narratives(!), this is exactly what experts in evidence say.

So, retired judge and lawyer/solicitor/barrister Herbert C. Casteel (Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, College Press: 1992, 2nd rev.; p. 211ff):

"The internal evidence of the resurrection accounts: Each of the four Gospels gives an account of that first Easter Sunday when Jesus arose from the tomb. When we first read these accounts it appears they are in hopeless contradiction. Matthew says it was Mary Magdalene and the other Mary who went out to the tomb. Mark says it was Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome. Luke says it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them, and John mentions only Mary Magdalene. Furthermore, they all mention different people to whom Jesus appeared on that day.

Does this mean that these are false reports, made-up by dishonest men to deceive us? On the contrary, this is good evidence that these are truthful accounts, because people who conspire to testify to a falsehood rehearse carefully to avoid contradictions. False testimony appears on the surface to be in harmony, but discrepancies appear when you dig deeper. True accounts may appear on the surface to be contradictory, but are found to be in harmony when you dig deeper."

Indeed, legal writer Clifford, in discussing the "minor variations test" for authenticity of evidence, notes that differences are EXPECTED from witnesses (Leading Lawyers' Case for the Resurrection Canadian Institute for Law, Theology, and Public Policy, Inc: 1991, 1996; p. 61):
"The minor variations test. ... Whilst truthful witnesses complement each other, a judge would not expect them to describe the same incidents in precisely the same way. If they did, that would point to conspiracy. Sometimes there may not be total uniformity in the order of events. One anticipates variations when two or more people testify about the same incident."

It is interesting that the most in-depth recent work on these events, by John Wenham, a biblical scholar (Easter Enigma, Baker: 1992, rev. ed.) describes a SIMILAR pattern. So, pp.10-11:

"I first became interested in the subject in 1945 when living in Jerusalem not far from the old walled city. I got to know the sites in and around the city intimately. I had no real doubts that the gospel writers were honest and well informed people, providentially equipped by God to give the church a sound account of these events, but I was by no means committed to the view that the accounts were correct in every detail. Indeed I was impressed in my early studies of the resurrection stories by the seemingly intractable nature of the discrepancies.

It is by no means easy to see how these things can be fitted together while remaining strictly faithful to what the writers say. But an insatiable curiosity made me want to know who did what and why each writer put things so. Reading all I could and studying the Greek text carefully, I gradually found many of the pieces of the jigsaw coming together. It now seems to me that these resurrection stories exhibit in a remarkable way the well-known characteristics of accurate and independent reporting, for superficially they show great disharmony, but on close examination the details gradually fall into place."

Finally, consider the comment by German classical historian Hans Stier:

"the sources for the resurrection of Jesus, with their relatively big contradictions over details, present for the historian for this very reason a criterion of extraordinary credibility."

(Cited in BLOM:103, who points out that we would 'prefer' to add the word "apparent" in front of his word choice of "contradictions"...)

The point should be clear--the surface structure IS puzzling; but instead of casting doubt on the passages, this structure actually turns out to be a reason to accord the narratives higher credibility. Now, this credibility can only 'last so long' as the accounts can still be reasonably and honestly synchronized. And Wenham, who is a biblical scholar and NOT a legal practitioner, is aware of the patterns of credible reporting.

Thus, the the differences in the accounts are very IMPORTANT to us--they give us additional reason to trust the testimony of these men who died to get this message of Jesus to us, and they give us important assistance in helping us understand this message!

The legitimacy of harmonization attempts relative to historical material;

We have already seen above that building an "imaginary narrative" that is essentially integrative, from "all the confusing phenomena," is the essence of historical method. So, 'harmonization'--the attempt to render a unified narrative from disparate narratives--should be understood as a legitimate step in this process. But even though it is standard practice in classical historiography, many biblical scholars in the modern vein scorn such methods (BLOM:8-9):

"In today's academic world, any biblical scholar who sets out to harmonize the gospels risks severe criticism from his or her colleagues. Some of this criticism is justified; some is not. On the one hand, it cannot be stressed too strongly that seeking responsibly to reconcile seemingly discordant testimony is the task of every historian, whether dealing with the biblical literature or with any other work of purported history, ancient or modern. Although the traditional desire to harmonize the gospels stems from a belief in their uniquely sacred nature, secular historians also regularly fit together apparently conflicting testimony in a way which vindicates the integrity of all the witnesses involved. Gilbert Garraghan's standard historiography textbook emphasizes that 'almost any critical history that discusses the evidence for important statement will furnish examples of discrepant or contradictory accounts and the attempts which are made to reconcile them.' [the note cites Gilbert Garragha, A Guide to Historical Method (Westport CT: Greenwood, 1973, p. 314)]."

Not only is harmonization a basic and standard tool of the historian; it is likewise a rigorous and DAILY tool of those who "get paid" to evaluate evidence--the legal profession! So, the biblical scholar Gleason Archer (who was ALSO a law graduate!!) points out how far from 'reality' many of the biblical critics are (Ency. Of Bible Diff., p. 315):

Bible critics who have never had any training in the laws of evidence may decry the 'harmonistic method' all they wish; but, like it or not, it is essentially the harmonistic method that is followed every day that court is in session throughout the civilised world. This method has a very definite bearing on valid procedures in biblical criticism as well as in the practical conduct of a tort or criminal action, or even a contract case in a court of law, today. Then the critics would find that most of their artificial, logically fallacious and basically biased approaches to the text of Holy Scripture would be successfully challenged by even the most inexperienced attorney and thrown out by the presiding judge.

Evangelicals agree that forced harmonizing (of which there are many, many comical and/or deplorable examples!) is illegitimate, but that the opposite extreme of dismissing exegetical efforts to follow standard historical praxis is likewise foolish.

Wenham points out the sad situation that occurs when scholars "give up too easily" and do not do the necessary spadework and required historical investigation to build a true view of an event (EE:128):

"Of course, the individuality of different writers must be respected, and the distinctive aims of different works (where these can be discerned) must be taken into account. Forced harmonizing is worthless. The tendency today, however, is the opposite--to force the New Testament writings into disharmony, in order to emphasize their individuality. The current analytical approach to the gospels often has the effect of making scholars more and more uncertain at more and more points, till eventually their view of Jesus and his teaching is lost in haze. The harmonistic approach, on the other hand, enables one to ponder long and conscientiously over every detail of the narrative and to see how one account illuminates and modifies another. Gradually (without fudging) people and events take shape and grow in solidity and the scenes come to life in one's mind. Such study is beautifully constructive and helps to vindicate the presuppositions on which it is based. It is sad and strange when immense learning leads to little knowledge of the person studied. One thing is certain: Jesus was a concrete, complex and fascinating figure of history, and any method of study which fails to reveal him as such is working on the wrong lines".

Notice that Wenham points out that the differences in the accounts CAN BE important clues to the aims of the writers, and that harmonization must not be 'forced' or 'fudged.'

As an example of harmonization 'done right,' let's look at an example by Wenham himself (EE:p.128):

"Matthew mentions Mary Magdalene and the other Mary at the burial and as setting out for the tomb. The angel speaks to "the women," who "ran to tell his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them."(27:55f.,61;28:1,5,8f.) If we had only Matthew we should take "the women" and "them" to be the Marys. But complicated movements of five women were apparently involved--Mary Magdalene left before the women entered the tomb, and the notifying of disciples required visits both to John's house and to Bethany. Probably only "the other Mary" was present at every point in the story and "the women" and "them" do not refer precisely to the two mentioned by name. Matthew is giving the detail necessary to convey his message, further elaboration would have been pointless distraction. He could of course have avoided any question by saying at verse 1 'certain women', but this would have been unnecessarily vague. His mention of Mary Magdalene and Mary of Clopas would have been suitable for three reasons: 1. It was they who set out together from Bethany as described at the beginning of his account. 2. Mary Magdalene was of special importance since she was the first person to see Jesus. 3. Mary of Clopas, however, was the one who was present throughout his whole narrative. Although he leaves out many details his is a judicious and accurate statement of what happened."

Notice that this account has all the elements of historical inquiry--both conjectural and "imaginary" as well as supportive--e.g.,the "three reasons". It does NOT assume that the authors were under some kind of constraint to provide a list of all the incidental characters in the story--they only needed to marshal the relevant details for their specific literary intent and purpose.

The point should be clear by now: harmonization is a standard, essential part of BOTH historical inquiry AND legal assessment of testimony of witnesses. As such, it is not 'alien' to the biblical students task, nor is it something to be practiced woodenly. The student of ANY history (not just 'biblical' history) is not only sanctioned in the praxis of harmonization, but he or she is literally compelled to do--under the methodological norms of historiography.

The issue of "plausibility" of explanations.

"Plausibility" is a notoriously subjective concept, and one that engages epistemologists to no end. Oxford dictionaries define "plausible" as "seeming reasonable or probable", but this will not get us very far. What seems "reasonable" to one may seem unreasonable to another. "Reasonable" could entail simply the notion can I can make a "rational" argument--one in which a conclusion is supported by some appeal to accepted premises or evidence. In the case of "reasonable", all one has to do is demonstrate that the explanation under question is POSSIBLE, given what we know about the situation and players in the scenario under study.

"Probability" is, however, of somewhat more strength, but is still very loaded. Probability would need to be greater than 25-30%, say, for something to be considered 'plausible', but even the determination of some "threshold" percentage will be difficult in historical events.

Given this somewhat ambiguous criterion, let's examine two skeptical passages to see how this 'plausibility' criterion plays out.

First, let me advance a passage from Dr. Robert Price's work Beyond Born Again, who is quite vocal in his insistence that the accounts cannot be harmonized (and that harmonization attempts are evidence AGAINST the evangelical position). [I am going to insert [letter marks] in the quote to facilitate my comments.] From his Chapter 6:

"The most embarrassing divergence between the narratives revolves around the spectacular scene in Matthew. [A] In this version, the women are treated to the sight of a luminous angel flying down, causing an earthquake, and heaving the stone away from the empty tomb, and all this in full view of posted guards! [B] The problem is that the other evangelists somehow seem to have forgotten to mention the guards and the whole sequence of events! Certainly if all this had really taken place, the women could not help but have included it in every telling of their story, and no gospel writer could have failed to use these facts had he known them. [C, D] In a gospel otherwise known for midrashic expansion (e.g., the addition of Peter walking on the water), it would not seem improbable that we have an unhistorical addition here. "[E]

"The reader has probably seen some attempts to harmonize some of the discrepancies between the gospel accounts. The precarious and contrived nature of the result should make anyone hesitant to base much on it. [F] But let us suppose these texts could all be harmonized. The value of the accounts as evidence for the resurrection would still be greatly lessened. The very admission of the need to harmonize is an admission that the burden of proof is on the narratives, not on those who doubt them. What harmonizing shows is that despite appearances, the texts still might be true. This is a different thing than saying that the texts as they stand probably are true, that the burden of proof is on the person who would overturn this supposedly unambiguous evidence for the resurrection. Conservative apologists often ignore all the discrepancies, or after they have harmonized them, they continue to pretend the texts constitute unambiguously positive evidence." [G]

Now let me make a few comments about this passage.

[A]: Just a minor note--Dr. Price here considers this the WORST case of divergence. It would be "plausible" then, to suppose that if this situation is resolvable 'plausibly', then we might have a higher confidence that other cases might be resolvable as well.

[B]: It is critical to our study to recognize what Dr. Price does in this sentence. He makes an exegetical decision, and without defending it against evangelical alternatives (in a book avowed designed to appeal to such), uses it as premise in his argument. Let's see this in slow motion...

The passage that he refers to is Matthew 28.1ff:

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. 2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. 5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
What Dr. Price has assumed without argument is the chronological sequence that appears in the English translation (e.g. women-go-to-tomb, followed by angel-earthquake, followed by stone-movement, followed by guards-go-comatose, followed by angel-announcement to the women.)

This interpretation depends on the Greek word (ginomai) rendered "There was..." in verse two. The verb is the standard one rendered "at it came to pass..." or "it came to be". The issue is that it is in the aorist tense--a rather undifferentiated verbal structure that pushes attention away from itself. The verb is generally NOT USED by itself to make a point of chronological sequence; the gospel writers depend on other additional words to make sequence clear (as we would use constructions like "and then.." or "subsequently..." or "after this"). The aorist makes NO STATEMENT whatsoever about itself. Indeed, biblical writers use series of aorists as the narrative skeleton, upon which to throw a present tense or future tense to 'stand out' and get our attention. The aorist is simply the "room in which" the events occur.

So, the aorist can be translated "was" and can ALSO be translated by an English pluperfect ("had been"). For example, aorists occur in main clauses (as here) in Matthew 14.3, Mark 8.14, and Lk 8.27b and the NIV reflects this temporal nuance:

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2 and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him." 3 Now Herod had arrested (aorist tense) John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, (Matt 14.1-3; Note that verse 3--the aorist--is used to explain background and historically PRIOR material.)

Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side. 14 The disciples had forgotten (aorist tense) to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 "Be careful," Jesus warned them. (Mark 8.13-15; the aorist in vs. 14 is used to explain background and historically PRIOR material.)

When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn (aorist) clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, (Luke 8.27f; the aorist in vs. 27 is used to explain background and historically PRIOR material.)

What this means is that there is an inherent ambiguity in the Greek construction here. Dr. Price has made an exegetical decision (on unknown grounds) and IT IS HIS DECISION that generates the "most embarrassing divergence". There literally IS no "divergence" or "convergence" until the exegetical decision is made--[hmmm...would this be called a "Schroedinger Contradiction"?...sorry, ;>)]

Wenham, on the other hand, takes this ambiguity under study, asking questions about historical possibility and normal usage (EE:78):

"We have to remember that first century writers had to work without the help of such modern aids as parenthesising brackets, and that, since Greeks care little about relative time, the use of the pluperfect tense was much less favoured by them than by us. Often in the New Testament the aorist tense needs to be rendered by an English pluperfect. So Matthew 28:2 could be inserted in brackets and translated with no impropriety:
(And behold there had been a great earthquake. For an angel of the Lord had descended from heaven, and had come and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it. His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. And for fear of him the guards had trembled and become like dead men.)

"Such a translation, however, exaggerates the element of relative time in a manner alien to the Greek (or, for that matter, Semitic) mind. W.E. Brown, commenting on Matthew's usage, here makes some interesting remarks about the methods of ancient historiography:
"The great historians of the nineteenth century learned to solve their problems by keeping to a chronological order. Such a practice is strictly speaking impossible unless the narration is confined to one person or to one locality .... Earlier chroniclers had tackled the difficulty in two ways. Sometimes they incorporated in a single story a number of actions and speeches which had a common theme, not indicating at all the time of the occurrence. Sometimes they jumped back and forward between two or more parallel sequences of events, leaving it to the reader to understand that each item is as it were a flash on a cinema screen."

Wenham then applies this "plausible" reconstruction (based on other, known usages and "control data") to the sequence in the passage and comes out here (EE:78):

"We may thus conclude that the earthquake took place before the arrival of any women and that the terrified guards had already left by the time they arrived. It was presumably a recurrence of the earth tremors which had caused the rending of the massive curtain which divided the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies at the time of the crucifixion. That the geological structure is conducive to violent shocks at this point has been brought home vividly to the many visitors who have seen the Church of the Holy Sepulchre shored up because of seismic damage."

Wenham exhibits here the standard practices of historical study--he has integrating narrative, yielding a plausible reconstruction of sequence, argued from (1) grammatical usage; (2) background geological data; and (3) related biblical data (e.g. he used the apostolic statement that "He is risen" was FIRST announced to believers, as evidence that the guards were NOT there at the time the angels announced it to the women--p. 77). His exegesis does not support a position of "most embarrassing divergence."

[C]: Dr. Price here makes a strange assertion--failure to include all the known facts about an event under narrative implies memory loss (or perhaps negligence)!

This position is surely not one Dr. Price would wish to hold authors to everywhere! The very nature of the literary enterprise--even "pure" history writing--involves selection from a large body of data, a subset to be set before the reader, with explanation and connections therein made explicit by the author. Failure to mention details--even ones held dearly by an author--is IRRELEVANT to the issue of credibility. There was not the slightest obligation on the gospel writers to write down EVERYTHING THEY KNEW about the first Easter! This is sheer assumption and 'arbitrary constraint' upon the authorial process, and as a criterion is without support in the larger body of literary theory and historical writing. His statement that "no gospel writer could have failed to use them" is an unsupported assertion and one that is strangely in contradiction with other positions that Dr. Price would undoubtedly hold as entirely legitimate (e.g. redaction criticism--it SPECIFICALLY uses such 'omissions' as clues to authorial literary intent. It builds the entire redactional-critical method on the assumption that the author KNEW the other details, but OMMITTED them for a different literary purpose.)

[D]: Furthermore, notice that Dr. Price has backed himself into this corner with this exegesis of the passage. By treating the passage as a 'flat sequence', and thereby creating the 'embarrassment', he is forced to accept the position that the women saw all of these things. This creates an 'urgency' level in their reports (according to Dr. Price) that (again) requires them to report every single detail--assuming they had the presence of mind to do this!

But once again, Dr. Price has made an exegetical decision for us--ALL the women saw ALL these events. Most harmonistic explanations have different groups of women, at different stages of travel and tasks, at different times. To treat them monolithically as a SINGLE GROUP is reading INTO the text assumptions that are simply not exegetically defensible (or at least not demonstrated by Dr. Price as being 'plausible' understandings of the narrative elements). He has made an exegetical decision that creates the problem.

Of course, even if ALL the women saw ALL the events and reported them to ALL the writers at ALL the times, there is NO requirement (as per above) for ANY of the authors to record ANY of the details--if it was not germane to their literary purpose to do so.

[E]: To digress and take up this rather amazing assessment of probability by Dr. Price would take us very, very far afield (e.g. into his characterization of Matthew as being "known for midrashic expansion"). But notice that somehow Dr. Price has made a determination of probability here--along the lines in the definition of "plausibility". Let's briefly note the structure of this simple argument.

It runs basically like this:

Matthew is "known for" midrashic expansion.
(Being "known for" midrashic expansion MEANS that it is found often in a document.)
(Midrashic expansion generally involves miraculous/spectacular elements added to simpler events or stories.)
Some of these spectacular elements do NOT occur in other gospel accounts.
(They WOULD occur in other accounts if they were true--authors were required to list ALL important details, about important events--regardless of their literary purpose in writing.)
Therefore, these spectacular elements did NOT occur.
Therefore, the account that CONTAINS those "non-occurring" elements MUST HAVE 'added them'.
Since they 'look like' OTHER identified 'midrashic expansions', and hence are predicted by a pattern of Matthew's authorial behavior, they make MORE sense as a "midrashic expansion" than as anything else (including real events).

The reader will obviously be able to spot a few faulty and/or questionable assumptions in this list, and just for the record let me add that we do not have A SINGLE occurrence of "creative midrash" (along the lines suggested by Dr. Price) before the 4th century A.D. So, it is rather anachronistic to see this process being applied by a tax-collector in the first century. [For a good introduction and overview of the complexities involved in identifying historiographical genres in first century Palestine, as well as the difficulties of using the term 'midrash' as a descriptive term, see R.T. France, "Jewish Historiography, Midrash, and the Gospels" in GP3.]

But my main question here is how Dr. Price assigns probability. Do all miraculous elements AUTOMATICALLY have to be "midrashic expansions" (a philosophical issue)? If not, how do we discern between 'true' miraculous elements and 'midrashic expansions' (a theological and/or historical issue)? And what patterns can be advanced and defended as being paradigmatic or indigenous in a writer, with which to compare the pattern in Matthew 28 to estimate "probability" (a literary-critical issue)? For me, I would be much more cautious about generalizing to this degree in Matthew.

[F]: I am not sure what harmonizations Dr. Price has carefully considered, so I might have to agree with him about selected ones. Others, with which I am familiar, do not manifest the 'precarious' character of which we speaks. Be that as it may, I find it interesting that he has assessed the "plausibility" of some harmonizations based on his assessment of their 'contrived' nature. At first blush, this smacks of convenience to me, but under what circumstances would I have to agree with him? What looks like being 'contrived' to me?

To me 'contrived' might apply to wooden, agglutinative approaches--for example, that the rooster crowed six times! To me 'contrived' might apply to suggestions that the text is faulty and needs "correction"--when there are no textual variants in the manuscript data--which occurs very often in OT exegesis. To me 'contrived' would apply to conspiracy theories, in which the plain meaning of the historical motives, dialogue, and events are displaced wholesale with novel ones. To me 'contrived' would apply to theories that place unwarranted and a-historical constraints on how authors 'build' texts--for example, where Dr. Price requires all the gospel authors to mention all details. To me 'contrived' would apply to historical reconstruction that have little or no 'control data' or illustrative cases--for example, if we could not give a single example of where the aorist was used as a pluperfect. To me 'contrived' would apply to systematically-complete theories of textual growth, but where there is literally not a single piece of mss. Data to support it--for example, the speculative Q document.

The point is that 'contrived' needs to be more than just an offhand remark. There needs to be some interaction with the position--to test the genesis of it, to question the linkages between premises and conclusions, to ask about illustrative data.

[G]: Here I simply want to note that Dr. Price is woefully out of synch with those most qualified to assess the value of different accounts of the resurrection--the legal trade. We saw above--to which entire legal textbooks of evidence could be added--writings by legal professionals, documenting the EXTRA VALUE, to the credibility of a story, of accounts that "need harmonization". Differences INCREASE the credibility of the story as a true event--as long as "plausible" reconstructions can be advanced and defended.

Let me give an example of this. Casteel, a trial judge in the U.S.A. for 26 years and attorney/solicitor for 15, includes this little passage in his book Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, p. 213.:

"Another sure mark of the truth, which we find in the Gospel accounts of the resurrection, are the numerous details of the very type that false accounts would be careful to avoid. For example, it is related of the Lord's appearances to His followers, that at first they did not recognize Him. A false story would never have been made up this way, because it is obvious that this would support an argument that the disciples were mistaken and didn't see Jesus at all. Why did the Gospel writers tell it this way? Because their purpose was simply to tell what happened, and that is the way it happened."

Now to me, this was an amazing insight. I have not found this in commentaries or any apologetics works--it is not something I am 'trained' to see. But those who are constantly 'checking out' the witnesses, notice these details. I would have to side with pragmatic judges--generally less influenced by presuppositions and less committed to more restrictive (but often useful) academic or paradigmatic 'schools of thought' (e.g. Jesus Seminar, Form Criticism, Socio-economic analysis) than biblical scholars, in many cases.

For a second example, I would like to use an issue raised by Farrell Till.

[Again, I will use [Letter] to act as markers for my comments below.]

"If there were two, then there had to be one, inerrantists will say, but in a matter as vitally important as the testimony to a resurrection, inspired by an omniscient, omnipotent deity, this kind of "explanation" has dubious merit at best. However, it is the stock explanation of inerrancy defenders in matters like these, so I will simply mention it, leave it to the readers to judge its merit, and go on to other discrepancies that no stretch of imagination can satisfactorily resolve."[A]

"After the women arrived at the tomb, Matthew said that a "great earthquake" occurred and "an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it" (28:2). Mark, Luke, and John, however, disagreed. Mark said that the women found the stone already rolled away when they arrived at the tomb (16:2). Luke agreed with Mark and said that the stone was "rolled away from the tomb" when the women arrived (24:2), and John said that the stone had been "taken away from the tomb" when Mary Magdalene arrived (20:1). So who was right? Matthew or the other three? It simply could not have been that the stone was both in place and rolled away too when the women came to the tomb? Our rule of evidence demands one of two conclusions: Matthew was right and the other three were wrong, or the other three were right and Matthew was wrong. Both versions of the story cannot be right."[B].

"Gleason Archer, in his typically far-fetched style, has offered this answer to the question (Why did Mary think the body had been stolen when the angels had already told her "He is risen""):

She apparently had not yet taken in the full import of what the angel meant when he told her that the Lord had risen again and that He was alive. In her confusion and amazement, all she could think of was that the body was not there; and she did not know what had become of it. Where could that body now be? It was for this reason that she wanted Peter and John to go back there and see what they could find out (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, pp. 348-349).

That sounds pretty thin to me, but inerrantists are famous for this kind of circumlocution when they are confronted with obvious discrepancies in the Bible text. Luke flatly stated that the women at the tomb, who would have included Mary Magdalene, 'remembered his (Jesus') words' when the angels reminded them that Jesus had predicted his resurrection while they were 'yet in Galilee' (24:7-8). Despite the clarity of this statement, Archer wants us to believe that the obvious discrepancy between it and John's depiction of Mary in his resurrection story was only 'apparent,' because she 'had not yet taken in the full import of what the angel meant when he told her the Lord had risen again.' As an explanation of the problem, it is too transparent to deserve serious comment. What 'full import' was there to take in? The angels said, "He is risen," as he had promised while he was 'yet in Galilee,' and the women 'remembered his words;! "[C]

"So it is with the resurrection accounts in the four gospels. If Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John--all four of them--had really been guided and directed by an omniscient, omnipotent deity while they were writing their gospels (as the inerrancy doctrine claims), there would be no maze of inconsistencies in the juxtaposition of their stories. There would be that perfect unity and harmony that fundamentalist preachers talk about so much--but which doesn't really exist." [D]

Mr. Till's arguments deserve more attention that I can give them tonight, but I want to make a few observations about the above assessment of 'plausibility' of harmonistic efforts by evangelicals.

[A]: Here Mr. Till refers to some "stock answer" by inerrantists concerning how many angels there were at the tomb. The "if there were two, then there was one" argument is sometimes used, but generally more thoughtful evangelicals point out that a refined version of this fits general usage even today.

Consider the following event. A crowd of people has congregated in the street below a would-be jumper. They are a crowd of around 10 people, who are looking up the side of a tall building at a would-be jumper on the 6th floor. I walk up to the crowd and look up and one of the people says to me "You should have seen him an hour ago--he was jumping up and down on the ledge." Whereupon, we all begin talking about the event.

In such a historical event, it would be perfectly accurate for me to say "I was watching a jumper the other day from the street, and there was a man there who said to me 'xxxxx'" AND it would ALSO be perfectly accurate to say "I was watching a jumper the other day from the street, and there were 10 people there talking with me about the situation." This is simple and standard description--there is no contradiction, no contrivance, and nothing particularly "thin" about that. To argue that this situation would be inaccurate is merely CREATING difficulties where none actually exist.

To label a position "dubious" without explaining WHY it is dubious, doesn't lend much credibility to the position as an argument. As a position, of course, it is quite clear. One should normally give SOME argument as to why it would be unlikely, perhaps from other illustrations of usage.

[I will reserve my comments about Mr. Till's apparently superior understanding of how an omniscient and omnipotent deity would inspire human authors to letter D...;>)]

[B]: I just want to notice here that Mr. Till makes the same exegetical decision that Dr. Price made, and hence, has to pit "Matthew vs. the Rest." Attention to the other options afforded by the grammar and culture of the day (demonstrated above) would have allowed him to skip this created-issue and focus on more difficult issues, perhaps...;>)

[C]: This is the more substantive issue I want to briefly look at, for illustrative purposes.

First of all, let me point out that I am NOT in agreement with Archer's solution--I prefer Wenham's reconstruction. But I still intend to 'defend' Archer's view--which is stated in much more detail below.

[Wenham is convinced that MaryM was NOT in the group described in Luke--which Till decides "who would have included Mary Magdalene." I am convinced by Wenham that MaryM was in route back to the apostles when this occurred, and hence, had not heard the pronouncement. She had seen the open tomb, had assumed a theft, and ran away immediately to report this to the apostles--she would not have gone into the tomb with the other women at that time. Even her inclusion in the list of Luke 24.9-11 could be understood as a common telescoping narrative--summarizing two events in one. Murray Harris--cited below--is also in basic agreement with this absense of MaryM.]

But let's assume for the moment that she HAD heard the 'He is risen'--a la Archer. Is it "plausible" that she could have been so distraught and confused as to not 'register' the words of the angels--while even being able to remember His earlier predictions? Mr. Till obviously seems convinced that it was psychologically impossible for MaryM to have been this confused or unable to think through the implications and meaning of the angel's words.

But let's think about this--historically. We know that often the disciples' heard Jesus' direct teaching, but did not 'understand' His words due to emotional issues (cf. : Mark 9:30: They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, 31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." 32 But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it......cf. John 20.8: Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)--notice that they had a mixture of belief and non-understanding.....Mark 6.51: Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52 for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.; and especially Matt 28.16-17: Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.--they ALL worshipped but some mingled this worship of a Risen Christ with doubt?!!!, )

Remember also that we are not always given snapshots into the inner lives of all the characters. Sometimes the narrator tells us they responded in fear, sometimes in joy, sometimes with both, sometimes with a mixture of incongruent attitudes.

I am NOT arguing that Mr. Till is wrong here (I believe he is, but that is a separate issue). Rather, I am arguing that his assumptions about psychological integration--that people under extreme stress cannot hold incongruous beliefs and act in inconsistent ways and doubt the very messages of God--are just too simplistic and lack adequate correspondence to the real world of human psychology. And correspondingly, that his assessment of Archer's position as being 'thin' and 'too transparent' and 'far-fetched' and 'undeserving of serious comment', is correspondingly based on inadequate criteria.

[D]: Finally, I have to take exception with Mr. Till's theology proper. For someone who does not claim to know "God", Mr. Till has some very precise ideas on what such a being WOULD and WOULD NOT do! For Mr. Till, such a God could NOT allow the full personalities of the writers to manifest themselves in truly human fashion--as impassioned witnesses to truth, with an urgency of their lives and a definite literary goal in mind as they strove to share with us the Good News that had changed their lives.

I do not know much about Mr. Till's background experiences with inerrantists--although I know there are some aberrant views of inspiration worthy of censure and correction--but the inerrantists I associate with would PREDICT that we would have many literary differences and nuances--both to strengthen the credibility of testimony and to allow each messenger to pass on their experience of the Risen Lord.

To illustrate this, consider the contrast between demon-possession and the "control" of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. Inspiration, in the biblical authors' cases, is not symmetrical with demon-possession at all. Demon-possession as recorded in the gospels suppressed the personality of the 'host'; the Christian experience of the Spirit of God liberates our person to manifest its true character. We are designed to produce "self-control" (Gal 5.23!). The true dance with God brings our inner robustness and personality out to joyous expression. We become more 'us' than we could be otherwise.

So, this final point is simply to encourage us to avoid setting arbitrary constraints on "plausibility". Mr. Till has a few such constraints (due to a restricted and specific presuppositon/belief about the nature of God and His interactions with humanity) that DEFINE for him some boundary items that restrict what can be called "plausible".

Several specific reconstructions/sequencing of the post-resurrection events (or appearances of Christ)

I have assembled here several harmonizations or sequences of appearances of Christ. Some are extended entries (e.g. Archer), some are short lists (e.g. Ryrie, Willingham), some are merely statements of how specific difficulties are to be resolved (e.g. Blom), and still others are detailed summaries (e.g. Harris). Most of these harmonizations will differ in some details, indicating the reality that there are MULTIPLE WAYS to harmonize the accounts! The Christian need not be concerned over whether or not THERE IS a defensible and "plausible" answer; the tough question is "of the 10 plausible reconstructions, WHICH ONE is the best, in my opinion?"--a radically different situation.

Casteel:
Such is the case with these Gospel accounts. With further study, the apparent contradictions disappear. For example, all four accounts are in harmony with the following sequence of events: Very early a group of women, including Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Salome, and Joanna set out for the tomb. Meanwhile two angels are sent; there is an earthquake and one angel rolls back the stone and sits upon it. The soldiers faint and then revive and flee into the city. The women arrive and find the tomb opened; without waiting, Mary Magdalene, assuming someone has taken the Lord's body, runs back to the city to tell Peter and John. The other women enter the tomb and see the body is gone. The two angels appear to them and tell them of the resurrection. The women then leave to take the news to the disciples. Peter and John run to the tomb with Mary Magdalene following. Peter and John enter the tomb, see the grave clothes, and then return to the city, but Mary Magdalene remains at the tomb weeping, and Jesus makes His first appearance to her. Jesus next appears to the other women who are on their way to find the disciples. Jesus appears to Peter; He appears to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus; and then appears to a group of disciples including all of the Eleven except Thomas.

[Casteel, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, pp.212-213]

Gleason Archer
The Women's First Visit to the Tomb

On Saturday evening three of the women decided to go back to the tomb belonging to Joseph of Arimathea, where they had seen Christ's body laid away on Friday at sundown. They wanted to rewrap His corpse with additional spices, beyond those which Nicodemus and Joseph had already used on Friday. There were three women involved (Mark 16:1): Mary Magdalene, Mary the wife (or mother) of James, and Salome (Luke does not give their names; Matthew refers only to the two Marys); and they had bought the additional spices with their own means (Mark 16:1). They apparently started their journey from the house in Jerusalem while it was still dark (skotias eti ouses), even though it was already early morning (proi) (John 20:1). But by the time they arrived, dawn was glimmering in the east (te epiphoskouse) that Sunday morning (eis mian sabbaton) (Matt. 28:1). (Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1 all use the dative: te mia ton sabbaton.) Mark 16:2 addst hat the tip of the sun had actually appeared above the horizon (anateilantos tou heliou--aorist participle; the Beza codex uses the present participle, anatellontos, implying "while the sun was rising").

It may have been while they were on their way to the tomb outside the city wall that the earthquake took place, by means of which the angel of the Lord rolled away the great circular stone that had sealed the entrance of the tomb. So blinding was his glorious appearance that the guards specially assigned to the tomb were completely terrified and swooned away, losing all consciousness (Matt. 28:24). The earthquake could hardly have been very extensive; the women seemed to be unaware of its occurrence, whether it happened before they left Jerusalem or while they were walking toward their destination. There is no evidence that it damaged anything in the city itself. But it was sufficient to break the seal placed over the circular stone at the time of interment and roll the stone itself away from its settled position in the downward slanting groove along which it rolled.

The three women were delightfully surprised to find their problem of access to the tomb solved; the stone had already been rolled away (Mark 16:34)! They then entered the tomb, sidestepping the unconscious soldiers. In the tomb they made out the form of the leading angel, appearing as a young man with blazing white garments (Mark 16:5), who, however, may not have shown himself to them until they first discovered that the corpse was gone (Luke 24:2-3). But then it became apparent that this angel had a companion, for there were two of them in the tomb. The leading angel spoke to them with words of encouragement, "Don't be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified" (Matt. 28:5). Nevertheless they were quite terrified at the splendor of these heavenly visitors and by the amazing disappearance of the body they had expected to find in the tomb.

The angel went on: "Why do you seek the living among [lit., 'with'--meta with the genitive] those who are dead? He is not here, but He has risen [Luke 24:5-6], just as He said [Matt. 28:6]. Look at the place where they laid Him [Mark 16:6], the place where He was lying [Matt. 28:6]. Remember how He told you when He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man had to be betrayed into the hands of sinful men, crucified, and rise again on the third day" (Luke 24:6-7).

After the angel had said this, the women in fact did remember Christ's prediction (especially at Caesarea Philippi); and they were greatly encouraged. Then the angel concluded with this command: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead!" Then he added: "Behold, He goes before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Lo, I have told you" (Matt. 28:7). Upon receiving these' wonderful tidings, the three delighted messengers set out in haste to rejoin the group of sorrowing believers back in the city (possibly in the home of John Mark) and pass on to them the electrifying news. They did not pause to inform anyone else as they hurried back (Mark 16:8), partly because they were fearful and shaken by their encounter at the empty tomb. But in their eagerness to deliver their tidings, they actually ran back to the house (Matt. 28:8) and made their happy announcement to the disciples who were gathered there

Mary Magdalene took pains to seek out Peter and John first of all; and she breathlessly blurted out to them, "They have taken the Lord away from the tomb, and we don't know where they have laid Him!" (John 20:2). She apparently had not yet taken in the full import of what the angel meant when he told her that the Lord had risen again and that He was alive. In her confusion and amazement, all she could think of was that the body was not there, and she did not know what had become of it. Where could that body now be? It was for this reason that she wanted Peter and John to go back there and see what they could find out.

Peter and John at the Tomb

The synoptic Gospels do not mention this episode, but it was extremely important to John, who therefore took pains to record it in detail. As the two men got closer to Joseph's tomb, they began to run in their eagerness to get there and see what had happened (John 20:34). John arrived there first, being no doubt younger and faster than Peter. Yet it turned out that he was not as perceptive as Peter, for all John did when he got to the entrance was stoop down and look into the tomb, where he saw the shroud, or winding sheet, of Jesus lying on the floor (v.5). But Peter was a bit bolder and more curious; he went inside the chamber and found it indeed empty. Then he looked intently at the winding sheet, because it was lying in a very unusual position. Instead of being spread out in a long, jumbled strip, it was still all wrapped together in one spot (entetyligmenon eis hena topon). Moreover, the soudarion ("long kerchief") that had been wound around the head of Jesus was not unwound and tossed on the shroud but was still wrapped together and lying right above it (vv.6-7).

In other words, no one had removed the grave-clothes from the corpse in the usual way; it was as if the body had simply passed right out of the headcloth and shroud and left them empty! This was such a remarkable feature that Peter called John back and pointed it out to him. All of a sudden it dawned on the younger man that no one had removed the body from that tomb. The body had simply left the tomb and left the grave-clothes on its own power, passing through all those layers of cloth without unwrapping them at all! Then John was utterly convinced: Jesus had not been removed by other hands; He had raised Himself from the dead. That could only mean He was alive again. John and Peter decided to hurry back and report to the others this astounding evidence that Jesus had indeed conquered death and was alive once more.

The Private Interviews With the Women and With Peter

For some reason, Peter and John did not tell Mary Magdalene about what they had deduced before they left. Perhaps they did not even realize that she had followed along behind them at her slower pace. In fact, she may not have gotten back to the tomb until they had already left. She arrived all alone, but she did not immediately reenter until she had paused to weep for a little while. Then she stooped down once more to look through her tear-stained eyes into the tomb (John 20:11). To her astonishment it was ablaze with light; and there she beheld two angels in splendid white robes, sitting at each end of the place where Jesus had lain (v. 12). Immediately they--the very same pair that had spoken to the three women at their earlier visit--asked her wonderingly, "Why are you crying?" Had she not understood the glorious news they had told her the first time? But all Mary could think about was the disappearance of Christ's body. "They have taken my Lord away, and I don't know where they have laid Him," she lamented. To this the angels did not need to give any answer, for they could see the figure of Jesus standing behind her; and they knew His response would be better than anything they could say.

Mary could sense that someone else had joined her, and so she quickly turned around and tried to make out through her tear-blurred eyes who this stranger might be. It wasn't one of her own group, she decided; so it had to be the gardener who cared for this burial ground of Joseph of Arimathea. Even when He spoke to her, Mary did not at first recognize Jesus' voice, as He kindly asked her, "Woman, why are you crying? Whom are you looking for?" (v.15). All she could do was wail at Him accusingly, "Sir, if it is you who have taken Him away, tell me where you have laid Him; and I will carry Him off"--as if somehow her womanly strength would be equal to such a task.

It was at this point that the kindly stranger revealed Himself to Mary by reverting to His familiar voice as He addressed her by name, "Mariam!" Immediately she realized that the body she was looking for stood right before her, no longer a corpse but now a living, breathing human being--and yet more than that, the incarnate God. "Rabbouni!" she exclaimed (that is to say, "Master!") and cast herself at His feet. It was only for a brief moment that she touched Him; for He gently withdrew Himself from her, saying, "Don't keep touching Me [the negative imperative me mou haptou implies discontinuance of an action already begun], for I have not yet ascended to My Father." Whether He did so later that afternoon and then returned afterward to speak to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus and the rest of the group back in Jerusalem that evening is not altogether clear. But if Mary was asked not to touch Him at this point in the day and the disciples were freely permitted to touch Him that evening, it must be inferred that He did report briefly back to God the Father in heaven before returning to earth once more for His post-resurrection forty day ministry.

This private interview with the risen Lord did not continue much longer, so far as Mary was concerned; for He commissioned her to hurry back to the group in the city and prepare them for His coming to join them in His resurrection body. "Go to My brethren," He said, "and tell them I am going up to My Father and your Father, My God and your God" (John 20:17). This definitely confirms the deduction that Christ did in fact make a brief visit to heaven during the middle of Easter Sunday before reappearing to Cleopas and his companion on the Emmaus road.

Nevertheless Jesus did not make ]His ascent to heaven at this precise moment, for He waited around long enough to meet with the other two women who had earlier accompanied Magdalene to the tomb at daybreak. Apparently Mary the mother (or wife of James, and Salome with her, had decided to go back once more to visit the empty tomb. Presumably they noticed that Mary Magdalene had slipped away again after conferring with Peter and John, and they must have guessed where she had gone. Very soon after Magdalene had left Jesus and headed back toward the city (but not so soon that they actually met one another on the way), the two women drew near to the same spot where they had encountered the two angels on their first visit (Luke 24:4).

We are not told whether the women actually entered the tomb once again, or whether they met Jesus just outside; but at any rate He apparently accosted them after they had arrived, and He greeted them (Matt. 28:9). (The Greek chairete here probably represents either the Hebrew shalom or the Aramaic Se lama'. Literally the Greek means "Rejoice!" whereas the Hebrew means "Peace!") Their reaction at seeing their risen Lord was similar to Magdalene's they cast themselves at His feet and kissed them as they clung to Him. Jesus reassured them as they were adjusting to the shock of seeing Him alive again, "Don't be afraid." Then He continued with a mandate similar to the one He had given to Magdalene: "Go and pass on the word [apangeilate] to My brethren that they are to depart for Galilee, and there they will see Me." It is highly significant that our Lord first revealed Himself in His resurrection body, not to the men, the eleven disciples themselves, but rather to three of the women among the group of believers. Apparently He found that they were even readier in their spiritual perception than the eleven men of His inner circle, on whom He had spent so much of His time during the three years of His teaching ministry. Be that as it may, it seems quite clear that Jesus chose to honor the women with His very first post-resurrection appearances before He revealed Himself to any of the men-- even to Peter himself.

Yet we must gather that Peter was the first of the male disciples to see his Lord alive after the Resurrection; for at some time after Mary Magdalene came back from her second visit to the tomb and her confrontation with Jesus there, Simon Peter must have had a personal reunion with Jesus. This we learn from Luke 24:34, where we are told that the disciples in the house of John Mark in Jerusalem had learned from Peter that he had already seen Jesus and had talked with Him, even before the two travelers returned from their journey toward Emmaus and reported back that they had broken bread with Jesus at the inn. They found as they came back with their exciting news and expected everyone there to be surprised at their account of talking with the risen Lord that the rest of the group were already aware of the stupendous event. The two travelers were delighted to meet with ready acceptance by all who heard them, for they were assured by all their friends, "Yes, yes, we know that Jesus is alive and has returned to us; for He has appeared to Simon Peter as well" (Luke 24:34). Presumably they were already aware (cf. v.22) of the earlier interviews reported to them by Mary Magdalene (who told them, "I have seen the Lord," and then relayed His announcement about ascending to the Father in heaven; cf. John 20:18) and by the other Mary and her companion, Salome, who had passed on His instructions about the important rendezvous to be held up in Galilee.

As for this personal interview between Christ and Peter, we have no further information; so we cannot be certain as to whether it was before or after His ascension to the Father and His subsequent return in the afternoon of Easter Sunday. All we can be sure of (and even this is perhaps arguable) is that He talked with Peter before He met with Cleopas and the other disciple on the road to Emmaus. It is interesting to note that Paul confirms that Christ did in fact appear to Peter before He revealed Himself to the rest of the Eleven (1 Cor. 15:5).

The Interview With the Disciples on the Way to Emmaus

The next major development on that first Easter Sunday involved two disciples who were not of the Eleven (the number to which they were reduced after the defection of Judas Iscariot). Cleopas was relatively undistinguished among the outer circle of Jesus' following; at least he is hardly mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament record. As for his companion, we are never even told what his name was, even though he shared in the distinction of being the first to walk with Christ after His resurrection. Jesus apparently chose these two disciples outside the circle of the Eleven in order to make it clear to all of His church that He was equally available or accessible to all believers who would put their trust in Him as Lord and Savior, whether or not they belonged to any special circle or had come to know Him at an earlier or a later date. Perhaps He also felt that for their future testimony to the world--that they had become convinced of His bodily resurrection even in the face of their initial assumption that He was already dead and gone--such a manifestation would be of special helpfulness to future generations.

One thing is certain: a true believer does not have to belong to the original band of chosen apostles in order to experience a complete transformation of life and the embracing of a new understanding that life with Jesus endures forever, in spite of all the adversities of this life and the malignity of Satan and the terrors of the grave. The Emmaus travelers replied, "Did not our hearts glow within us on the way and as He opened the Scriptures to us?" (Luke 24:32). They thus became the first example of what it means to walk with Jesus in living fellowship and hear Him speak from every part of the Hebrew Scriptures.

This account is contained only in the Gospel of Luke, that Evangelist who took such special interest in the warm and tender personal relationships that Jesus cultivated with individual believers, both male and female. We may be very grateful to him (and the Holy Spirit who guided him) that this heart-stirring record was included in the testimonies of Jesus' resurrection; for this encounter more fully than the others shows how life may be transformed from discouragement and disappointed hope into a richly satisfying and fruitful walk of faith with a wonderful Savior who has conquered sin and death for all who put their trust in Him.

One interesting feature about this interview deserves comment. As in the case of Mary Magdalene, Jesus did not appear to the Emmaus travelers at the first with His customary form, features, or voice; and they failed to recognize His identity. They took Him for a stranger who was new to Jerusalem (Luke 24:18). It was not until after He had taught them how the Old Testament had clearly foretold how Messiah would first have to suffer before entering into His glory--and indeed not until after they had sat down for a bite to eat at some roadside cafe and heard Him give thanks to God for the food--that they realized who He was. And then, at the moment of recognition, He suddenly left them, vanishing from their sight. This sudden disappearance showed them that this new friend of theirs, who had flesh and bones and could use His hands to break bread with them, was a supernatural Being. He was the God-man who had triumphed over death and had risen from the grave to resume His bodily form, a marvelous new body with power to appear and disappear according to His will and purpose, as He saw fit.

As soon as Jesus had left them, the two wayfarers sped back to Jerusalem as fast as their legs could carry them. They lost no time in making their way to the assembled believers and sharing with them the electrifying news of their lengthy encounter with the risen Lord. "And they began to relate their experiences on the road, and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread."

The Interviews With the Assembled Disciples

Luke tells us that while the Emmaus travelers were finishing their report to the assembled believers, the Lord Himself entered through the locked doors and appeared in their midst (Luke 24:36), much to the amazement of all those who had not previously seen Him risen from the dead. Graciously He greeted them with His customary "Peace be with you" (the Greek eirene hymin doubtless represents the Aramaic S'e lama' 'am'e kon (John 20:19]). Then He hastened to allay their fears by showing them physical evidence of His bodily resurrection and restoration to life. "Why are you troubled and why do doubts arise in your heart?" He asked (Luke 24:38), as He held out His pierced hands for them to see and removed His sandals to show the nail holes through His feet (vv.3940). He even uncovered the scar of the gash that the Roman spear had made in His side as He hung lifeless on the cross (John 20:20). "Look at My hands and feet," He said to them, "for it is really I. Feel Me and see, for a mere spirit does not have flesh and bones such as you behold Me to have" (Luke 24:39).

How many took advantage of Christ's offer to touch Him, we cannot be sure. But numbers of those in the room found even this evidence too amazing to be believed; so He offered a yet more dramatic proof. "Do you have anything to eat?" He asked them. They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He proceeded to eat it as they looked on with wonder and delight (Luke 24:4243).

Having thus demonstrated that He was none other than their beloved Master risen from the dead, Jesus proceeded to explain to them, as He had explained to the two on the road to Emmaus, that all the amazing occurrences of Passion Week were fully predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures--all the way from Genesis to Malachi. The portions referred to were threefold: Moses (i.e., the Pentateuch), the Prophets, and the Psalms. (Notice that by this period all the Old Testament books other than the Pentateuch and the Psalms were included under the classification of "Prophets"--including all the books of history, Daniel, and probably the wisdom books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes as well, unless "Psalms" is intended to represent all five books of poetry.) The entire Hebrew Bible is about the Son of God. But His particular focus was on those predictions of His ministry, sufferings, and death found in the Pentateuch (Gen.3: 15; 49:10; Deut.18: 15-18, and all the types of priesthood and sacrifice contained in the Torah), the Prophets (e.g., Isa. 7:14-9:6; 52:13-53:12), and the Psalms (esp. Ps. 16:10 and Ps. 22), which foretold all the events that found their culmination on this Easter Day (Luke 24:44-46). Thus He assured them that all the apparently tragic events of the last few days were in exact fulfillment of the great plan of human redemption that God had decreed from before the beginning of all time. Instead of feeling intimidated and disappointed by the shame of the Cross, they were to see in it the greatest victory of all time; and they were to trumpet abroad the good news of salvation, which by His atonement He had purchased for repentant sinners everywhere.

This led Jesus quite naturally to the earliest pronouncement of the Great Commission. He told the disciples that repentance was to be preached in His name to all nations for the forgiveness of sins, beginning from Jerusalem, and that they as eyewitnesses were under special obligation to carry out the proclamation of this message.

(Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Zondervan: 1982, pp. 347-352)

Wenham (EE:139)
IN OR NEAR JERUSALEM
Easter Sunday morning --to Mary Magdalene.
Easter Sunday morning --to other women.
Easter Sunday midday --to Cleopas and companion.
Easter Sunday afternoon --to Peter.
Easter Sunday evening --to ten apostles and others.
Following Sunday--to the eleven, including Thomas.

IN GALILEE, LATER
To the seven by the lake of Tiberias.
To more than five hundred brothers in the hills.
To James, the Lord's brother.

BACK IN JERUSALEM

To the eleven, followed by the Ascension from the Mount of Olives.

Geisler and Howe:
Mary (John 20:10-18)
Mary & Women (Matt. 28:1-10)
Peter (1 Cor. 15:5)
Two Disciples (Luke 24:13-35)
Ten Apostles (Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23)
Eleven Apostles (John 20:21 31)
Seven Apostles (John 21)
All Apostles (Matt. 28:16-20; Mark 16:14-18)
500 Brethren (1 Cor. 15:6)
James (1 Cor. 15:7)
All Apostles (Acts 1:4-8)
Paul (Acts 9:1-9;1 Cor. 15:8)

[Geisler, WCA: p366]

Ryrie Study Bible
Resurrection at first dawn
The women, coming with spices, find the sepulcher open and empty. Mary Magdalene returns to tell Peter and John
The other women, remaining, see two angels, who declare the Lord's resurrection.
Mary Magdalene returns to the sepulcher. Jesus reveals Himself to her. She reports to the disciples--First appearance
Jesus meets the women (Mary mother of James, Salome, and Joanna) on their return to the city--Second appearance
Peter and John find the sepulcher empty
Report of the guards to the chief priests, who bribe them
Jesus seen by Peter (Cephas, 1 Cor. 15: 5)--Third appearance
Seen by the two disciples on way to Emmaus--fourth appearance
Jesus appears to the ten, Thomas being absent--Fifth appearance
Evening of Sunday after Easter day. Jesus appears to them again, Thomas being present--Sixth appearance
The eleven go into Galilee, to a mountain appointed. Jesus appears, and commands them to teach all nations--Seventh appearance
Jesus shows Himself at the Sea of Tiberias--Eighth appearance. Charges Simon to feed His lambs, sheep, and young sheep
Seen of above five hundred brethren at once (1 Cor. 15:6), probably along with the eleven-- Ninth appearance
He is seen by James, then by all the apostles (Acts 1: 3-8; 1 Cor. 15:7)--Tenth appearance.

(Ryrie Study Bible, ppp.1931-2)

Willingham
First: Mary Magdalene as she remained at the site of the tomb (John 20.11-17)
Second: to the other women who were also returning to the tomb (Matt 28.9-10)
Third: to Peter (Luke 24.34; I Cor 15.5)
Fourth: to the disciples as they walked on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24.13-31)
Fifth: to the ten disciples (Luk 24.36-51; John 20.19-23)
Sixth: to the 11 disciples a week after the resurrection (John 20.26-29)
Seventh: to the seven disciples by the Sea of Galilee (Jn 21.1-23)
Eight: to 500 (I Cor 15.6)
Ninth: to James, the Lord's brother (I Cor 15.7)
Tenth: to the 11 disciples on the mountain in Galilee (Matt 28.16-20)
Eleventh: at the time of the Ascension (Luke 24.44-53; Acts 1.3-9)
Twelfth: to Stephen just prior to his martyrdom (Acts 7.55-56)
Thirteenth: to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9.3-6; 22.6-11; 26.13-18)
Fourteenth: to Paul in Arabia (Gal 1.12-17)
Fifteenth: to Paul in the temple (Acts 9.26-27; cf. 22.17-21)
Sixteenth: to Paul while he was in prison in Caesarea (Acts 23.11)
Seventeenth: to the apostle John (Rev 1.12-20)

H.L. Willmington, The Complete Book of Bible Lists , Tyndale: 1987, p.168-169.

Murray Harris
After the actual resurrection had taken place, but before dawn, an earthquake occurred, an angel rolled away the stone from the entrance of the tomb, and the guards trembled and fled (Matt. 28:2-4).
As Sunday morning was dawning, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and Salome approached the tomb, intending to anoint Jesus with the perfumed oil brought by other women who evidently set out later (see #7) . To their amazement they found the stone rolled away (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:1-4; John 20:1).
One or more of the women entered the tomb and announced that the body was not there (an inference from John 20:2, where Mary Magdalene does not simply say, "The stone has been taken away").
Mary Magdalene immediately returned to tell Peter and John that the body had been removed (John 20:2).
Mary (the mother of James and Joses) and Salome saw an angel ( = "a young man" in Mark) inside the tomb who announced the resurrection and directed the women to tell the disciples that Jesus would meet them in Galilee (Matt. 28:5-7; Mark 16:5-7).
These two women returned to the city without greeting anyone on the way, for their holy awe rendered them temporarily speechless (Matt.28:8; Mark 16:8).
Certain women from Galilee, along with Joanna (cf. Luke 8: 3), arrived at the tomb, carrying perfumed oil to anoint the body of Jesus. They met two "men" (= "angels"; cf. Luke 24:4, 23) and then returned to report the angels' message of the resurrection "to the Eleven and to all the rest" (Luke 24: 1-9,22-23) who had evidently now gathered together (c£ Matt.26: 56) .
Meanwhile, informed by Mary Magdalene, Peter and John (and others?; Luke 24:24) ran to the tomb (without meeting Mary and Salome), observed the grave-clothes, and returned home (John 20:3-10; and Luke 24: 12, if this is the correct textual reading).
Mary Magdalene followed Peter and John to the tomb, saw two angels inside, and then met Jesus (John 20: 11-17; cf Mark 16:9).
Mary Magdalene returned to inform the disciples that Jesus had risen (John 20:18; c£ Mark 16:10-11).
Mary (the mother of James and Joses) and Salome met Jesus and were directed to tell his brethren to go to Galilee (Matt. 28:9-10).
The disciples had now had reports concerning the empty tomb or the resurrection from three sources (viz., Mary Magdalene, Joanna and the women from Galilee, Mary [and Salome]), but they refused to believe these reports (Luke 24:10-11; cf. Mark 16:11).
During the afternoon Jesus appeared to two disciples on the way to Emmaus. They then returned to Jerusalem to report the appearance to the Eleven and others (Luke 24:13-35; c£ Mark 16:12-13).
Jesus appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15 :5).
That evening Jesus appeared to the Eleven and others (Luke 24:33), Thomas being absent (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:5; cf Mark 16:14).
One week later Jesus appeared to the Eleven, Thomas being present (John 20:26-29) .
Seven disciples had an encounter with Jesus by the Sea of Tiberias in Galilee (John 21: 1-22).
The Eleven met Jesus on a mountain in Galilee (Matt. 28:16-20; cf Mark 16:15-18).
Jesus appeared to more than five hundred people (Luke 24:44-49; 1 Cor. 15:6).
He appeared to James (1 Cor. 15 :7) .
Immediately before his ascension, Jesus appeared to the Eleven near Bethany (Luke 24:50-52; Acts 1:6-11; 1 Cor. 15:7; cf Mark 16: 19-20).
(Murray Harris, TCQ:107ff)

Craig Blomberg:
"Finally, it is remarkable to observe how often the alleged contradictions among the gospels are cited without a discussion of the many proposed solutions which can fit them together in a very plausible and natural manner. John Wenham has quite recently devoted an entire book to a harmonization of the accounts and few of his proposals are entirely new. There is scarcely room to summarize all his main points, but in the case of the sample 'contradictions' mentioned above, one can offer the following brief replies: (a) angels generally appear in Scripture as men, and if one of the two were the primary spokesman, it would not be surprising if sometimes only he were mentioned; (b) it is likely that Jesus appeared to the eleven in Jerusalem, then later in Galilee when they had gone home after the Passover, and then once again in Jerusalem upon their return in preparation for the feast of Pentecost; (c) if Salome is both the 'mother of James and John' and the sister of Mary, Jesus' mother, there is no irreconcil- able problem with the lists of women; and (d) it is not unfair to describe the world as still rather dark at the first glimpse of morning daylight. The apparent discord among the gospels can be alleviated, but it must be admitted that any reconstruction of the events is speculative. "
(BLOM:102)

................................................................................................

Let me try to make a few summary points here at the end:

I have obviously not resolved all the surface phenomena of the narratives, nor have I even attempted to do so.

I have shown that the methods used by thinking and conscientious evangelicals--harmonization and integrative narrative reconstruction--are legitimate and important.

I have argued that the Christian does not necessarily have to submit to external and foreign criteria for 'plausibility,' and that the historical student should be a critical thinker relative to those who would attempt to impose arbitrary criteria on the process.

I have given examples of appropriate harmonization.

I have argued that the apparent divergence at the surface level of the narrative accounts is actually something to appreciate! That these differences are important for both understanding and the extra 'weight' of credibility of the gospel accounts.

Glenn Miller, 3/4/97

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The Christian ThinkTank...[http://www.Christian-thinktank.com] (Reference Abbreviations)
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Where Is The Trap?

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT wrote:

"I have argued that the apparent divergence at the surface level of the narrative accounts is actually something to appreciate! That these differences are important for both understanding and the extra 'weight' of credibility of the gospel accounts."

You would make a good politician, CHRIST TRIUMPHANT. What you wrote is a convoluted way of saying that the Bible is full of contradictions - and this makes you believe it even more!

And you expect us to take you seriously, you lying piece of shite?

Of course, if there are contradictions, they don’t disprove that the resurrection did not happen - that is not what I am suggesting. But, there must be considerable doubt thrown on the reliability of the people claiming to be witnesses. Some will obviously be completely wrong – maybe they are all wrong? And what about the veracity of the rest of what they wrote? If this is so, then the value of the Bible as a reliable historical document is negated. I am sure that you would have no trouble applying a dose of healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or Buddhism. Why should anyone, least of all yourself, not apply the same to the outrageous claims of your own religion?

Do you understand what a hypocrite is?

What is the difference between these beliefs?

) Mohammed ascended to Heaven on a winged horse.
2) Alien souls, sent by the evil lord XENU, are trapped inside us and have to be removed using an ‘e-metre’.
3) During the crucifixion, when Jesus yielded up his last breath, the sky was rent in two, there was an earthquake that split the rock-masses and opened many graves. Out of these emerged many dead people, who then entered Jerusalem and they became visible to many people. See Matthew 27:51-53. Apparently, this didn’t make enough of an impression on anybody - apart from Matthew - for them to be compelled to historically record it. Maybe it was a common occurrence in those times?

To any reasonable human being they are all equally ridiculous as there is absolutely no supporting evidence for any of them, and they break all the known laws by which our universe operates.

Where is the trap? It is simply sensible and rational. I didn't make the outrageous claim that the Bible was a reliable historical record - you did, you stupid demon worshipper.

Re: Set A Trap

Where is the historical proof that Christ did not die (which you admit to the resurrection) and there was no earthquake and that the temple curtain was rent in two at the time that he did die?

Where is the historical record that the earth was created by a transexual goddess?

Who is the liar, you or the authors of the bible, which was written over several thousand years and in harmony, describing the very person of Christ and his life and the manner of his death and the very words that he was going to say?

What is so difficult to comprehend.

The bible is a completed work yet the Koran was written at least 3-400 years after Mohammad died and constantly being modified by the Hadiths.

Who saw Mohammad ascend to heaven since his religion was organised so long after his death and there were no records before this. Ron Hubbard admitted that his religion was science fiction and based on lies and mind control. what is you point?

Are you embarrassed to admit that you are really have been fooled by freemasonry and that there is that possibility that you in fact do not know as much as you think you do about God?

You are always in time to remedy your mistakes. God doesn't resort to physical violence and intimidation because He doesn't need to. He is omnipotent, THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS SPEAK FOR ITSELF. Would you ever have the courage to live as a Christian? Seek and ye shall find. Call on the Lord while He is near and He will show you who He is. He is not a respecter of persons but He will not answer if you deliberately destroy human life.

Follow Christs lead.

Reply to trapped

Christ our righteousness wrote:

"The bible is a completed work"

Didn't you admit that there are contradictions in it? If there are not any, then you should have no difficulties telling me exactly what happened on "Resurrection Sunday".

Actually, the word contradiction is a euphemism for "falsehood" or "lie". How do contradictions equate to it being written in harmony, you lying pustule?

So, to prove that the Bible is a completed and harmonious work, you offer me lies - and then proceed to tell me that these lies make it all the more believable. Be off you filthy deceiving follower of Satan. The Bible was written hundreds of years after Je-Zeus was fabled to have walked on Earth, you despicable hypocrite.

WHAT HAPPENED ON "RESURRECTION SUNDAY"?

Reply to Anonybous regarding challenge to Christianity

They are not contradictions/lies they were records of an event that occurred written by four different perspectives. they are still valid accounts and have been proven valid because all the facts remain in harmony, as verified, none of the evidence is missing.

Jesus was not in the tomb when visited by the women and two of his disciples then he appeared to all his disciples when they were gathered together for fear of the jews who had killed an innocent man, Thomas who doubted until Jesus told him to put his finger into where he had been pierced.

His disciples did not steal his body as this was the contradiction lie falsehood propagated by Christs enemies, the Talmudic Pharisaical impostors who had infiltrated the Judaic peoples and opposed all those who succeeded in accepting the messiah when he arrived and completed his mission in victory.

These called themselves jews at the time however the Son of God who was able to read their hearts and motives denounced them. for further information read the account of the visions of eg white, in desire of ages.

The evidence you requested has been presented, or do you like to argue for arguments sake without really learning anything from anyone else, you are not God you are just flesh and blood.

Why cant you accept reality and really try and understand the sacrifice made for humanity.

Sin is what is ugly in man, not their religion, however you have all religions through Illuminati inadvertently worshipping the all seeing eye of Lucifer or Satan as the bible calls him, that once beautiful and exalted angel of God that rebelled against the Father, Jehovah and His Son and their Holy spirit.

Have you ever bothered to look into Bible prophecy and history, not all history is false, most of it is one sided, but accurate and see that 90 percent of Bible prophecy has been fulfilled.

Shame that you spend so much time fighting against Christianity.

You must know that the sda's have the true doctrine and are the remnant that is why you are against them.

What is so wrong with Christianity, you are basically attacking the 10 commandments and the Torah which Christ fulfilled in his perfect life.

Your ranting and raving wont change anything, but you are entitled to scrutinise and I pray that God continues to reveal the truth to you in a better capacity than this human vessel, your final account will be to God anyways.

Ellen white is a true prophet because she was proven by the biblical standard of prophecy and also by the medical and scientific experts of her day to possess extraordinary ability that would render a normal person in similar physiological circumstances dead, she also had extraordinary literacy ability and her work touches the heart and elevates the mind to think within the spiritual rather than carnal nature.

U need to get a copy of the book PROPHET OF THE END, it gives eyewitness record of what occurred when she went into vision.

God gave the spirit of prophecy to humanity in the last days to prepare them for the real second coming of Christ, the end of this world, age, eon.

The false appearance of the Antichrist, or Satan impersonating Christ with much extraterrestrial (demonic) fanfare with the worldwide headquarters at Jerusalem will declare war on all Christians by the Islamic agenda and imposing the sabbath be abolished and "unify " and ensure they receive the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell (Sunday).

Sunday is the day of the resurrection but Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not Satan's day as the papacy of old declared it to be in order to force by pain of death, the day of Tammuz, or Zeus, Mithra the sun god, not Yeshua, the son of god.

What you are in affect disclosing in all your posts is your hatred for the false impersonator that calls himself Christ but is not the Christ of the Bible or of the church of God, woman in the wilderness, the Remnant.

The King James is a more reliable version and if you think that this is not good enough then get the Pershitta Bible translated from Aramaic.

You really have to ask yourself whether you accept the murder, rape and torture of innocent victims in Satanic Ritual Abuse as a valid alternative to truly doing no harm to others, excepting in self defence of the truth and themselves and loving your neighbour as yourself.

This post is about ritual Satanic abuse and whether these revelations are accurate or are the result of someone's defunct imagination this is the issue at hand the real problem, pox, pustule of sin and its effects on those that have given themselves up (sold themselves cheap) to the wickedness of Satan.

This is the real controversy between Christ and Satan, disagreeing with true Christianity is like shaking the hands of these monsters and cowards and saying well done, continue your evil ways, continue to hurt the innocent and steal, kill and destroy the body. you are in fact turning YOUR eyes away from evil and the only way that evil can triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Well there's news for you there is billions of us good people out here and one day this world will be recreated new, free from sin in ourselves and in the universe, it will be the paradise for the innocent forever.

Jesus did exist does exist and will return no matter how they try to deceive in all cunning.

He said to His people, BE OF GOOD COURAGE I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD, LO I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS EVEN UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE.

Praise God, the Father and the Son.Praise the heavenly host, peace.

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The Cristian Family November 2006

Ben Lowrey Interviews Arthur Cristian - Love For Life


8th February 2012

Ben Lowrey benlowrey.com Interviews Arthur Cristian www.loveforlife.com.au - 8th February 2012 - 89 Minutes 47 Seconds. Arthur discusses a wide range of subjects from Freeman & the law to how "The System" is designed to have us process the curses of "The System". He talks about his and Fiona's experiences with the law & why Love For Life started. Arthur also discusses the remedy to the tyranny of "The System" & the way back to peace, truth, freedom, joy, abundance & Do No Harm for all of life without loss of uniqueness or the need for slaves & rulers. Who we really are, what we are really part of & our true purpose is very different to what we are taught by the brainwashing of "The System" that has us re-present the thoughts of other men & women rather than thinking unique thoughts inspired by direct experience, perception interaction with nature. Everything we, the Cristian family, have gone through, from bank fraud and the theft of the family home to death threats and attempts on Arthur's life, is touched on.

The Cristian Family November 2006

Love For Life Videos Posted On YouTube
Since October 2011

YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/ArthurLoveForLife

More info (links to articles, debates/discussions, documents & more background info on the videos) can be found by scrolling down this Love For Life website home page

All the best
Arthur & Fiona Cristian
Love For Life

The “Name” Is The Mark Of The Beast
The Strawman Identifying Your Slave Status In “The System”
5th February 2012 - 56 Minutes 25 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 6
Under The Spell Of Intellectual Property
19th April 2012 - 51 Minutes 52 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 5A
System Science is Fraud and the Timeline of Chaos
30th November 2011 - 57 Minutes 36 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 5B
System Science is Fraud and the Timeline of Chaos
29th January 2012 - 67 Minutes 26 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 5C
System Science is Fraud and the Timeline of Chaos
22nd February 2012 - 67 Minutes 25 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 5D
Images Of Deception - The Intelligence Agents Amongst Us
24th February 2012 - 44 Minutes 53 Seconds

Song "Save Our Lives"
31st January 2012 - 5 Minutes 38 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 1
21st October 2011 - 62 Minutes 47 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 2
23rd October 2011 - 83 Minutes 47 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 3
26th October 2011 - 101 Minutes 10 Seconds

"The Dream Of Life" Part 4
29th October 2011 - 57 Minutes 30 Seconds

Key To Kindom
Co-Creation Of Do No Harm Communities
Causing A Mass Exodus From "The System"
7th February 2011 - 24 Minutes 48 Seconds

Short Story - Once Upon A Time
Written in 2007
18th February 2011 - 8 Minutes 38 Seconds

Kindom Garden
Creating A Large Organic Recycled Transportable Garden
4th February 2012 - 17 Minutes 16 Seconds

Background Information For All These Videos Can Be Found Here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/8275

The Cristian Family November 2006

Control The Land
And You Control MAN On The Land
Displace MAN From Land
And You Turn MAN Into Slaves
By Arthur & Fiona Cristian
Love For Life

April 2011

This is an extract taken from a recent Facebook Discussion.
Links to all these Facebook discussions/debates can be found here:
http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3385

Control the land and you control MAN on the land

Displace MAN from land and you turn MAN into slaves

All men, women and children have a natural inheritance to a piece of land (a hectare is sufficient) to care for and co-create life with, land with access to clean water and shelter where they can grow food and raise their families in peace and freedom, doing no harm to the land, to their lives and all of life, and passing on the land and its abundance to their descendants and tribes/villages/communitie​s.

Is there any man, woman or child who will come forward and say we do not have that natural inheritance?

For what are we without land?

Our natural inheritance comes without the threat of being stolen or sold, and is unencumbered by debt or any other man-made restriction BUT comes with full responsibility for nurturing that land and doing no harm. Once we give up our responsibility, we need masters and, once we need masters, we become slaves. We lose our freedom and we lose our uniqueness.

We were never meant to be in the image/likeness of another MAN'S thought but, once we have masters, we are forced to mould the men, women and children we are into the likeness of the thoughts of our masters. When we are displaced from land, we have to rely on our masters for everything, thus acquiescing our freedom, uniqueness and responsibility as we accept the handouts and "The Systems" of our masters. We become the cogs of "The System", drones turning on our brothers and sisters of life, once all MAN on the land, in the name of "The System" which only benefits the tiny few who control "The System". The local councils, etc, have become the Land Barons of "The System", at the beck and call of the Priests who control everything.

Free on the land, able to provide our families with all they need, we are free to be the unique men, women and children we are meant to be, thinking thoughts that are unique to each of us as we contemplate on and interact with nature all around us.

All our problems stem from the lie that some men and women have the right to have power and control over others and, when we accept this lie, we support and maintain it.

No MAN is master of another MAN

All men are equal

Displacing MAN from land is slavery

MAN on the land is where true peace and freedom for all begins

The statutes of Council rules, etc, are all part of the scam to keep MAN from being free on the land. Common Law, Democracy and Constitutional Rights, etc, do nothing to solve this problem as they also support the displacement of MAN from land because most people cannot compete in "The System" of commerce as their natural skills lie elsewhere and they are not good at making money out of other men and women; they don't like it. Those who cannot compete are discriminated against; they have lost their uniqueness and their freedom on the land and they become the garbage collectors, the sewerage workers and all the other cogs through the rank and file of the blue and white collar workers. The dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest-and-smartest "System" keep the few in control of all the land so that they can control all the men and women residing on that land.

The Church, The Bar, The Courts, The Aristocracy, The Governments and Councils are the means by which the few maintain control of the land and maintain the lie of some having power and control over others. They are not to be found anywhere in nature and anywhere there are tribes still living peacefully in pristine forests. Where they exist is where all the tribes were displaced from the land and where the remnants of the tribes and those sent in to live amongst them, live under the control of the Church and its systems. Operating out of this lie, those who work for "The System" can only do harm. If they want to go with truth, they can only stop working for "The System" and do all they can to get it out of our lives.

The cogs of "The System" can come and do harm to anyone on the land at any time without having to take responsibility for it, although all harm is a curse and curses always return to the makers and holders of the curses.

The key to our freedom is in removing the power & control of the few over the land. Once we do that, they have nothing.

Who are they to think they can tell us we are not free?

All Man-Made "Systems" Require Slaves And Rulers

All man-made systems require slaves and rulers. It is impossible to avoid this fact, this circumstance. Being forced to live under the rules, regulations, rituals, procedures, conditions and contracts of any man-made system causes a loss of uniqueness to everyone exposed to them. No man, woman or child is answerable to anyone or anything re-presenting a man-made system. We were never meant to give up FULL-responsibility for our lives, which is what we do when we acquiesce to any man-made system, be it cashless or not, gold standard or not, religious, political, legal, social, environmental, spiritual, philosophical, commercial, esoteric, international or domestic or not, and fall under the standing of its authorities, representatives and enforcers. All man-made systems are a scam as will be the coming New World Order system with its cosmic, galactic, Christianised, feel good/feel god, "Oneness" glue remedy to cure the present earth-wide chaos engineered by the tiny few who still want all the power and glory. This cashless "one-world" remedy will be overseen by an earth-wide power structure no different to the Federation overseeing the non-sense cashless world of Star Trek.

Tools used by those behind man-made systems to indoctrinate the masses include all religions, holy books, history books, science, the New Age and all forms of education stemming from any of the many universities presently offering "system career" courses across Earth. Placed on the conveyor belt running through factory planet earth, brainwashed men and woman are being manufactured in sameness moulds to produce individuals (in-divide-u-all-s). We are already unique, not one the same as the next, but all man-made systems trick us through propaganda and manipulation into giving up our uniqueness so we can become the willing slaves and rulers in "The System". All man-made systems (all beliefs, faiths & associated opinions) cause loss of uniqueness. As already mentioned we were never meant to be in the image/likeness of another mans thought.

Broken up into individuals, we no longer feel the bonds between us which is why we think we need an artificial system to co-exist. All Freemasonic/Satanic holy books, and belief systems exist to keep us in an individualised state so that we accept "The Systems" that control us therefore giving our power and life-force-energy away to those hiding behind "The Systems" to rule us with. There is no other reason or purpose for their existence. They are all designed to con us into being ruled by man-made systems, to con us into accepting third party figures, whether saviours or "leaders" so that we give up the responsibility for our lives here and now to them. Even to the point where we no longer think that what is happening on Earth is important because we believe in "life after death" or the ascended masters of the Galactic Federation or some "other world" out there where we will have peace from the pressures of life under "The System". They all come packaged as fairytales with fairytale props and characters for us to give up our responsibility for our lives to here and now so that we can be ruled by those Freemasons/Satanists hiding behind "The System" of those fairytales.

This is why the Freemasonic/Satanic world always operates in the shadows. They are the master puppeteers pulling at the strings of the belief, faith and associated opinion of their marionettes. Just as little Mary is unable to bring forward the Alice in Wonderland characters and settings she is playing to prove they exist neither are those who believe in "The System" fairytales able to bring forward 1st party to 1st party proof/substance of their existence. All they can do is re-present them but they are the only ones present; the characters are not. No matter how intense and for how long they believe in their fairytales and how much they argue for them and protect them, the believers only have their belief, faith and associated opinion. The brainwashing is extensive.

Individualism is as if we go to the ants and say, "Hey ants! We are changing your values and giving you a new program called individualism. You are now free to be in-divide-u-all-s; you can each have your own truths and no one has the right to take them away from you." And so the ants go off to become materialists, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, atheists, republicans, democrats, New Agers, conservatives, punk rockers, journalists, psychologists, politicians, priests, banksters, judges, lawyers, etc, etc. Meanwhile back in the ant world colony, who is taking care of the babies and the elderly and maintaining the nest? Inevitably, the ant-world perishes and all individualised ants go with it! This is what is happening to MAN and MANS Earth. Is this the consequence we all want? We each need to take full-responsibility for our lives so that together the responsibility for taking care of Life is taken care of. Passing the buck to a 3rd party God, man, woman, fiction, law, political party, piece of paper, electronic/digital recording device, etc, stops each of us from taking full-responsibility for life.

We are determined to co-create Kindoms/Do No Harm Communities to be the living-remedy that provides an everlasting peace, freedom, truth, joy, abundance and do no harm for all of life without the need for having slaves and rulers or causing loss of uniqueness.

Note: To continue exploring the information we share and fill in all the other missing pieces please read the articles: "Re-Presenting Is The Pull Of Duality Into False Consciousness" 19th April 2011: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/8129, "Introduction To "The Curses Are Being Returned" 11th June 2011: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/8183 and explore the many videos, podcasts, articles and recent Facebook/email discussions/debates posted here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6608 and here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3385 and here: http://loveforlife.com.au.

Arthur & Fiona Cristian
Love For Life
April 2011

The Cristian Family November 2006

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The Cristian Family November 2006

ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER

Note: Updated Wednesday 17th June 2009 8.00pm Sydney Time.

Love For Life does not support harm doing in any shape or form. However, we are supporters of free speech and post articles, documentaries, etc, that represent a wide cross section of ideas. See the Love For Life extensive research library where over 11,000 individual documents, articles, videos, podcasts and debates/discussions are posted: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/82. We clearly see the evidence of the destruction to MAN and Earth that has been caused by ALL religions over the centuries and are therefore not supporters of religions, cults, sects or any group that demands conformity of thought, speech or action, or has rules, regulations or rituals that must be followed. Religions, nationalities and cultural "identities" are formed as a result of the brainwashing we receive from childhood. They are part of the tactics the Establishment uses to keep us all divided from one another and fighting one another.

All religions promote discrimination and division, leading to hatred and even violence and murder. None of them have yet to produce a remedy to all the suffering, poverty, unhappiness and discrimination in the world. If any religion truly had the remedy to all the suffering on earth, there would no longer be any suffering. What have Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, atheism and the New Age done to end the suffering in the world?

The Love For Life website has information from all sides on many subjects, whether about Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Law, health, psychology, mind control, vaccination, aspartame, MSG, Chemtrails etc. There are over 11,000 individual articles, documentaries, etc on the website and they are so diverse that we are sure that everyone would be able to find something they loved and something they hated, if they took the time to search. If we removed all the articles hated by everyone, there would probably be nothing left! We are not anti anyone but freedom of speech is freedom of speech and no one should condemn the work of another without taking the time to research the subject themselves. Yes, there are articles by those who have a less-than-rosy-viewpoint of Judaism, but there are also articles on the dark side of Tibetan Buddhism (and it is very dark) for those who are interested in the truth: Tibet - Buddhism - Dalai Lama: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6271 Should the authors of these articles be abused and imprisoned for daring to challenge the widely conceived reputation of Buddhism as being the religion of peace and love and that of the Dalai Lama as a saint, or should those interested be allowed to study the work and come to their own conclusions? The same applies to all the articles, documentaries, etc, about Christianity, Islam, Freemasonry, New World Order, etc.

The Love for Life website also shows how the Rule of Law, the Bar, the Government, the Monarchy, the system of commerce, the local, national and multi/trans-national private corporations, all the courses and careers on offer from our universities, all the educators, scientists, academics and experts, the aristocrats and the Establishment bloodlines have also done NOTHING to end the suffering in the world. The website maps the insanity of a world where there is no help for those in need, just as there was no help available for us when we were victims of terrible bank fraud: http://loveforlife.com.au/court_case orchestrated, condoned and protected by an international crime syndicate/terrorist organisation of judges, barristers, registrars, lawyers, politicians, banksters, big business representatives, media moguls and other lackeys who, all together, put up a wall of silence despite our trying many, many avenues. After the family home was stolen and business destroyed we were left close to poverty and destitution caring for 4 young daughters. Three years later not much has changed regardless of all our efforts. Where were all the followers of all the religions to help us? Or do we have to be members of those religions to receive help from others involved in them?

We have been accused of being anti - Jewish because we had posted an excerpt from James von Brun's book: Kill the Best Gentiles! http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6054 in which he blames Jews for the problems of the world. Obviously this is not our view because of what we have stated above. We do not hate anyone, whatever religion they follow. We are always open to talk to any religious leader or politician and meet with any judge, member of the Bar, experts, academics, educators etc to share the remedy we offer that heals all the divisions between MAN and MAN, and MAN and EARTH.

Today, a representative of the New South Wales Jewish Board of Deputies is threatening to close the website down, because they have decided it is anti - Jewish and that we promote racism. What has the New South Wales Jewish Board of Deputies done to end the suffering in the world? Can they show that they are concerned with the suffering of ALL men, women and children AND ARE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT or are they only concerned with Jewish affairs? If so, they, along with all the other religions that only care for their own, are part of the problem, not part of the solution. The man who rang Arthur today was only concerned with Jewish affairs; he was not interested in our intentions or in anybody else, just as most Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Catholics, etc, are only interested in their own. While we separate our lives into groups, dividing our lives from others with rules, regulations, rituals, procedures, conditions and contracts, we will never solve our problems.

No matter what we in the Western World Civilisation of Commerce have been promised by our politicians, religious leaders, scientists, educators, philosophers, etc, for the past two hundred years, all we have seen is ever-increasing destruction of men, women and children and Earth. None of the so-called experts and leaders we have been taught to rely on are coming up with a solution and none of them are taking full-responsibility for the fact that they can't handle the problem. All religious books talk about end times full of destruction and suffering but why do we have to follow this program when there is an alternative to hatred, mayhem and death? Why are our leaders following the program of destruction and death rather than exploring the do no harm alternatives? It seems that any mainstream politician, priest or academic are only interested in supporting the RULES OF THE DIVIDE, that maintain the haves and the have nots. For 200+ years, 99% of the world population have been so trained to pass on their responsibility for their lives, others and Earth, that the 1% of the population that make up the leaders of the rest of us are making all the decisions leading to the destruction of all of us and Earth. Let's not forget the education system that brainwashes the 99% of the population that we are free and have equal rights while, in fact, we are feathering the nests of those at the top.

At the root of all our problems is self-centredness, an unwillingness nurtured by the Establishment that keeps us concerned only with our own needs rather than the needs of others around us and Earth. Instead of creating and releasing acts of love for those around us as gifts to benefit them and Earth, we take, take and take, until there is nothing left. The whole point of the Love for Life website is to show people the root of all our problems and to share the remedy. The extensive research library is there to attract browsers and to provide access to information not available through mainstream channels. If the New South Wales Jewish Board of Deputies can, after careful examination of our work, prove that anything we are saying is wrong, we will be happy to accept their proof. If they cannot, and they are still insistent on closing the website down, they will be showing themselves to be traitors to MAN because they are not interested in pursuing any avenue that can end the suffering in the world.

All religions, corporations and organisations that support and maintain the Western World Civilisation of Commerce are part of the problem because our civilisation is a world of haves and have nots, exclusivity, privilege, racism, violence, hatred, poverty, sickness, discrimination, abuse, starvation, homelessness, corruption, collusion, vindictiveness, social unrest, arrogance, ignorance, fear, war and chaos. While we support civilisation, we support death and destruction.

If we truly want peace and freedom for all, we have to let go of all that which keeps us divided, and come together as MAN, conscious living co-creators of creation/life. The Love For Life website offers a remedy to the problems we all face in the form of DO NO HARM COMMUNITIES (KINDOMS): http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6608 - http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3641 For more details see here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6511 and here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3385 - We also highly recommend that everyone read the brilliant Russian books called The Ringing Cedars: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/1125 - The Love For Life homepage/front-page also provides lots of inspiring remedy based information: http://loveforlife.com.au - If you want to be kept up to date with our work please register to the Love For Life mailing list here: http://loveforlife.com.au/campaign_list We usually send two postings per month. Presently (September 2011) there are over 7000 registrations reaching over 500,000 readers across Earth. The website now (September 2011) receives up to 12 million hits per month. Since December 2006, over 100 million people have visited the Love For Life website.

Conscious Love Always
Arthur and Fiona Cristian
Love For Life
17th June 2009

 

 

The Cristian Family November 2006

THE CRISTIAN FAMILY PLEDGE

Being of clear brain, heart and intention, we each declare the following to be true:

• We have no intention of ending our own lives.

• We will not tolerate suppression of truth, ideas, freedom, or our work. We stand for freedom of speech.

• We stand together to support others in the expression of truths and freedom to speak out no matter how radical those ideas may seem.

• Standing for freedom takes courage; together we shall be strong in the face of all odds.

• If it is ever claimed that we have committed suicide, encountered an unfortunate accident, died of sickness/disease, disappeared, been institutionalized, or sold out financially or in any other way to self-interested factions, we declare those claims false and fabricated.

• We testify, assert and affirm without reservation, on behalf of all those who have dedicated their lives to the ending of secrecy and the promotion of freedom of thought, ideas and expression that we shall prevail.

• We Do Not Have Multiple Personality Disorders

Arthur Cristian
Fiona Cristian
Jasmin Lily Cristian
Emma Rose Cristian
Frances Hannah Cristian
Xanthe Jane Cristian

15th December 2006 (Edited/Updated 18th September 2011)

The Cristian Family November 2006

Update Regarding The Love For Life
Home Page And Quick User Guide

We are turning this Love for Life Quick User Guide http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6608, also found on the Love For Life Home Page http://loveforlife.com.au, into a blog (scroll down this page below points 1 to 13 & after the Facebook links) of all the main insights of our work since March 2005, whether through articles, videos, podcasts or discussions/debates. As we do not have the time to compile everything we have written into a book, as many have suggested we do, compiling all our most important work into one area of the website is a way of providing easy access to this work so those interested are able to fully comprehend the big picture. Instead of having to find our different articles, videos, etc, in various parts of the website, it will all be accessible here (scroll down this page below points 1 to 13 & after the Facebook links), from either the Quick User Guide or the Home Page. As amateurs and posted below the Facebook links, we are currently creating and posting a series of videos called "The Dream Of Life" which covers the ground of all the Love For Life insights. We plan to have the videos completed by March 2012. Once this is behind us, our intention is to create a 2 hour or so professionally made documentary covering the body of this work. We have started recording songs, with others, that express the themes of Love For Life. These will be posted on Arthur's YouTube channel, www.youtube.com/user/ArthurLoveForLife, when they are ready. Some have already been used as the soundtrack on the first "Dream of Life" video. Also, everything we, the Cristian family, have gone through, from bank fraud and the theft of the family home to death threats and attempts on Arthur's life, is documented below too. If you, the reader, are prepared to put the effort in, you will comprehend the extent to which we have all been tricked into becoming slaves, giving up our uniqueness and our full-responsibility for life and destroying everything of life to the point where life is in danger of dying out completely. You will also comprehend the remedy to all this chaos; a remedy that requires only love for life and the determination to do what needs to be done. Though our focus is very strongly on the remedy that creates a world of freedom, truth, peace, joy, abundance and Do No Harm for all of life without loss of uniqueness or the need for slaves and rulers, we realise that it is vital to comprehend how to get there and what stops us from getting there. This is why there is so much information on the hows and whys of everything going wrong in the world today. We are not into peddling conspiracy theories, we are into routing out all forms of organised crime.

Saturday 26th November 2011

Arthur and Fiona Cristian
Love For Life

1. For The Body Of The Love For Life Work by Arthur and Fiona Cristian

Which Unravels The Reasons For The Chaos, Mayhem and Confusion Being Experienced In The World Today, Explains The Need For "Community Immunity" and Responsibility, and Focuses On The Creation Of Kindoms - Do No Harm, Life-Sustainable Communities (As The Remedy That Heals All Mans Woes) - And How We Can Co-Create Them. For Comments, Articles And Discussions, Go Here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3385 - Also Go Here To See Podcasts And Videos Posted by Arthur & Fiona Cristian: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7309 - The Information Shared Comes From Inspiration, Intuition, Heartfelt-Logic And Information Gathered From Nature And Many Amazing Men And Women Along The Way. It Is Not Found In Any Books Or Channellings, Or Talked About By "Experts". Go Here To Read A Brief Synopsis Of Why We Started Love For Life: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/8182

2. For Information About The Ringing Cedars of Russia Series

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/1125 and for more on Eco Homes, Villages, Organic and Permaculture Gardening and Life-Sustainability, etc, go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/3641 and here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/1985 and Mikhail Petrovich Shchetinin - Kin's School - Lycee School at Tekos: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/5173

3. For How To Eat A Raw, Living Food Diet,

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/5068 - LIFE is information. When we distort LIFE and then eat, drink, absorb, think, feel, hear, see, touch, taste, smell and perform these distortions, the information of LIFE, your LIFE, our LIFE, our children's lives, everyone's LIFE, is distorted.

4. To Find A Menu For The Extensive Research Library (over 8,000 items posted embodying over 11,000 documents, pdf's, videos, podcasts, etc)

Which Covers Topics From Health to Chemtrails/Haarp to Brain Control to Archaeology to Astronomy Geocentricity Heliocentricity to Pandemics Bird Flu Swine Flu to Fluoride to Cancer to Free Energy to Global Warming, 9/11, Bali Bombings, Aspartame, MSG, Vaccinations, Aids/HIV, Mercury, New World Order, Satanism, Religions, Cults, Sects, Symbolism, etc, etc, go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/82

5. If You Would Like To Read About The Cristian Family NSW Supreme Court Case

(Macquarie Bank/Perpetual Limited Bank Fraud Condoned By Judges, Registrars, Barristers, Lawyers, Politicians, Public Servants, Bureaucrats, Big Business and Media Representatives - A Crime Syndicate/Terrorist Organisation) Which Prompted The Creation Of This Love For Life Website December 2006, And The Shooting And Torture Of Supporters Who Assisted Us In Reclaiming The Family Home, Joe Bryant And His Wife, Both In Their Late 70's, go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/5 And Read Some Of Our Email Correspondence With Lawyer Paul Kean - Macedone Christie Willis Solari Partners - Miranda Sydney May 17th-June 27th 2006: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7300

6. For The Stories Of Other Victims Of The System,

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/australian_stories (If you have a story you would like us to put up, we would love to here from you:
action @ loveforlife.com.au)

7. For Documentation Of Harm Done By The Powers-That-Be And Their Representatives,

Evidence Revealing How Victims Did Not Break The Peace, Caused No Crime or Harm, There Were No Injured Parties. Documenting Incontrovertible Evidence Demonstrating How The Powers That Be (PTB) And Their Lackeys Will Break All The Laws They Are Supposed To Uphold. They Will Kidnap, Intimidate, Terrorise, Rape, Pillage, Plunder And Lie And Take Responsibility For None Of It. All Part Of Their Tactics Of Using Fear And Trauma To Keep Us In Our Place. Relatives Of Those Under Their Radar Are Also Not Safe From Attack And Intimidation. All Starting From A $25 Fine For Not Voting And A $65 Fine For Not Changing A Dog Registration. We Do Not Have Freedom And Can Only Appear To Have Freedom If We Comply. Regardless How Small The Matter The PTB Throw Hundreds Of Thousands Of Dollars Away To Enforce Their Will.... Go Here:
Fiona Cristian Reply To State Debt Recovery Office - Part One to Part Ten - From 17th October 2008 And Still Continuing:
http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6319 or
Fiona Cristian Reply To State Debt Recovery Office
Part One: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/5742 - From 17th October 2008
Part Two: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6135 - From 18th December 2008
Part Three: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6295 - From 9th January 2009
Part Four: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6296 - From 14th January 2009
Part Five: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6375 - The Sick Puppy - From 20th February 2009
Part Six: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6390 - Police Officers, Sheriff’s Officers, Tow Truck Driver and State Debt Recovery Office Blatantly Ignore the Law To Rape, Pillage and Plunder The Private Property Of Fiona Cristian - From 11th March 2009
Part Seven: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6445 - Affidavit Of Truth - Letter To The Queen + Australia: Fascism is Corporatism - From 30th March 2009
Part Eight: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6652 - The Pirates Auction And The Ghost Of VSL386 - From 4th April 2009
Part Nine: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7073 - Arthur Cristian's Letter To Pru Goward MP - From 15th December 2009
Part Ten: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/7500 - Should We Be In Fear Of Those Who Claim To Protect Us? "Roman Cult" Canon Law - Ecclesiastical Deed Poll - The Work Of Frank O'Collins - From 13th October 2010

8. If You Are Interested In Information On Freedom From Statutes, Rule-Of-Law, Free Man/Free Woman, Strawman, "Person" and Admiralty Law (The Law Of Commerce),

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/895 - For Common Law, Democracy, Constitution, Trial By Jury, Fee Simple, etc, go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/category/main/law-articles-documents

9. If You Are Interested In Banking and Money Created (Fiat/Credit/Debt/Mortgage/Loan/Overdraft etc) Out-Of-Thin-Air, How Banks Counterfeit Money,

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/banks

10. For A List Of All The Latest Posts In The Love For Life Website,

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/tracker

11. For Links To Many Hundreds Of Videos, DVDs And Podcasts

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/video_dvd

12. To See The Cristian Family Pledge, Legal and other Disclaimers

go here: http://loveforlife.com.au/content/06/12/05/love-life-legal-disclaimer

13. To Read About How A Representative Of The NSW Jewish Board Of Deputies Had Threatened To Shut Down The Love For Life Website

go here: Part One: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6616 Part Two: THE STEVE JOHNSON REPORT AND VIDEO: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6665 and Part Three: Latest Update On James Von Brunn: http://loveforlife.com.au/node/6673

Conscious Love Always
Arthur & Fiona Cristian
Love For Life
action @ loveforlife.com.au
www.loveforlife.com.au
0418 203204 (int: 0011 61 418 203204)
PO Box 1320 Bowral 2576 NSW Australia

Arthur Cristian

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